First, let me ask any of you who don't live in Crystal Beach and who have cars, to please find the time to go to the Tim Horton's in the Beach - anytime after about 8:00 p.m. on a weekend night in nice weather. (You can also see the situation during the week, but it's usually worse on the weekends.) What you will probably see is a bunch of lawn chairs gathered around the concrete block that holds the light and sign pole. You might also see cars backed into the parking spaces that face out to Roxborough Road. You might also see trucks and cars backed up to the berm on the other side of the street at the Avondale Plaza. In the bus shelter, you might see a bearded man, sitting on the bench, his nearby bike laden with plastic bags. His beard is braided and he sits reading a newspaper or doing a crossword puzzle. He seems to talk to no one, but people do approach him for brief periods and then walk away. Observe the people who are gathered there. Are they all drinking coffee? How long do they stay there? Do they look like they are planning on leaving anytime soon? In most municipalities, this is considered loitering, but it is never enforced.
Before smoking was banned, the Tim Horton's in the Beach was a year-round evening gathering place for some locals, who sat and nursed a coffee all evening while their kids ran around the coffee shop - often in their PJs. I suppose it's better than hanging out at a bar, but there are neighbours close by who can't sleep some nights from all the noise. It's more about the location than the loitering that is bothersome to me.
My question to you is: what can be done about this that can work for everyone?
Friday, August 8, 2008
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16 comments:
Shut down the 24 drive thru.
A friend of mine is selling her home because of the problems ALL NIGHT LONG!!!
Where is the town and the police? My neighbours and i call and nothing is done
Please someone help!
Fed up at Tim Hortons
Tim Hortons, Should Be shut Down for late at night, because we all see the problems, that has been created. there are other Tim Hortons near bye that are open, and in not so residential areas. OR is this Tim Hortons Merly a HANGOUT, for the boared,lonley,cast offs who do not drink coffee,BUT MERLY THRIVE ON GOSSIP.
If there is criminal activity going on by all means the police should be doing something about it.
The town is not responsible for enforcing the criminal code.
The problem is enforcement. My BFF and I went down there about 10:00 P.M. last night and the tableau was exactly as I described earlier: Booger in his "office" reading a newspaper; people sitting on lawn chair and on motorcycles under the light standard; others standing around in groups. I did not see any coffee being consumed. We went over to the Avondale store to buy something (that parking lot was mercifully clear; they wait until after the store closes.) As we were pulling out of the lot, two police cruisers went by fairly quickly and we followed them to the fourplex apartment on Belfast, set back from Erie Road, the home of many transients. We drove around the Beach and observed many For Sale signs and a shocking lack of care to the planting beds, trees and the landscape along Erie Road. There's even poison ivy growing up the some utility poles on Erie. But I digress, as usual. We went back to the fourplex and the police were gone - not to stop the congregation at Tim Horton's, but gone. Numerous calls have gone in regarding this issue, but they are mostly ignored. In fact the night that I went to observe the goings-on, a police cruiser cruised down Ridgeway Road - right past the scene and never returned. Maybe it's because they're given free coffee by Tim Horton's and feel guilty about it. I say: pay for your own coffee and do your job to protect the citizens.
With a town council meeting scheduled for Monday, August 18, perhaps folks affected by the problem could bring it to the forefront by addressing the mayor and councilors directly? Contacting the Town Clerks office 905.871.1600, ext. 2211, people can schedule a time slot to speak.
Just a thought.
Regards,
John McCarthy
Thanks. I believe a group is planning a delegation to council on August 18. It really shouldn't be necessary; the franchise owner is well aware of the problem and it could be resolved very easily by not allowing loitering past 15 minutes and enforcing it. I saw that very thing in action on Sunday at the beach. A woman was sitting at one of the shaded picnic tables near the snack bar, using her laptop. (why?) Anyways, the owner of the snack bar came to her and very quietly and politely advised her that the tables are there for the use of the patrons of the snack bar only. If I hadn't happened to be standing about three feet away, I never would have noticed. She packed up her laptop and moved.
In the case of Tim Horton's in the Beach, a sign that states "No Loitering - 15 Minute Limit - All Others Must Leave" or something to that effect could be the first step. Enforcing it would be the next step, but that might entail the hiring of security as the counter workers have enough to do without adding potential injury to their list.
This situation could be cleared up in a matter of days if the owner was serious in his promise to deal with the problem. The police would not even have to be called. I can think of dozens of restaurants in the area where there is a parking lot. Would any of the restaurant owners allow such goings-on in their lot? Never happen. Is it worth the couple dozen or so cups of coffee bought by these people to disrupt the neighbourhood and create a dangerous situation? It will take a major injury or worse, a tragedy before this gets resolved, I'm afraid.
I suspect, in the very near future, there will be a VERY embarrassed, Tim Horton's franchise owner.
BEST WISHES,
John
How many lawsuits are you going to talk about before we actually see one filed?
Be patient. All will be revealed. I am talking about lawsuits as lawsuits are being talked about by various people and groups because they have exhausted all other avenues to have the issue addressed. The people who are threatening a lawsuit over the Tim Horton's issue have been putting up with problems for years and they have complained to no avail. Sometimes a threatened lawsuit is the only way to get people to take an issue seriously. Just like a threatened strike by a labour union doesn't always end in a walkout; sometimes both parties go back to the bargaining table resolved to settle when a possible strike looms. Kudos to my old union, the CWA! They successfully negotiated a new contract and thus prevented a strike. Way to go! I personally hope that no lawsuits are necessary - in either the Bay Beach issue, the Tim Horton's issue, or any other issue, but sometimes they're the last resort.
the thing about threats is you've got to pull one off once in a while or else you're just Chicken Little.
That may be your opinion, but it sounds like something that would be said in a playground taunt. People who threaten lawsuits are not "chicken." They are trying to get a message across. Lawsuits are expensive. In the case of Tim Horton's, I cannot predict whether the people will go ahead with a suit, but right now, they're talking about their legal options. There is a concerted effort, on the part of some entities, to intimidate possible litigants before they even file a lawsuit. For instance, the OMB has allowed municipalities to seek legal costs for appeals to the OMB. Fort Erie did just that in a recent appeal that was dismissed by the OMB. A local conservation group sought to go to the OMB over the so-called Rwanda clear-cutting during nesting season, but were warned that that the group could be liable for legal expenses should they lose. It is impediments like that that sometimes stop lawsuits before they are even filed. Unless one belongs to a well-funded group or can get pro bono legal services, sometimes a "threatened" lawsuit is never realized.
You seem to be of the opinion that the town of Fort Erie can do no wrong and that people who complain or appear at council to complain have no basis for their complaints - and when their complaints fall on deaf ears and they threaten a lawsuit, they are called "chicken" if they are unable to continue the suit. Very judgmental of you. Tell us, what would you do if you were faced with an intolerable situation? And what if you tried everything to resolve the issue, but it continued, what would you then do? Put yourself in the place of the people who own homes in the area around Tim Horton's in the Beach. Would you accept what is going on there? That is the issue here. Not whether someone is Chicken Little or not.
What I would do is TAKE legal action rather than continually making idle threats that go no where.
Why don't you start a legal defense fubd and solicit contributions from people concerned or those who sign your petitions?
Have people put their money where their mouth is like the people who bought their own beach.
The people I'm referring to do not make "idle threats." When you used the term "you" whom do you mean? As to "my" petitions, I have started one that I know of and it is now a moot point re: the mound at the public beach. There are bigger issues regarding the beach right now. I have supported a petition to save the Ridgeway Shores Golf Course and to keep the Bay Beach Properties from possible sale. The Ridgeway Shores issue cannot be litigated by anyone except the people in Phase 1 of the Ridgeway-by-the-Lake development. As to the Bay Beach issue, I will contribute to the FOCB if they ask for donations for a possible OMB appeal. Starting a so-called defense fund is very involved and such a group would have to register as a not-for-profit organization and incorporate and have a board of directors. It is almost more trouble than it's worth, but at least it's a positive suggestion. For myself, I will support as much as I can through this medium and financially when I'm able. That's all I can do at this time. The people directly affected by the Tim Horton's issue would have to organize their own defense fund and they may be doing that as we speak. I know that they have consulted a lawyer about how to go about filing a class action suit. They are still hoping that the matter will be resolved by Tim Horton's before they have to go that route. Just take a look at what's happening in Toronto since the propane explosion: to date notice of intent has come from two law firms representing people in the area and they're going after everyone - from the planning department right to the provincial level. There was a history of complaints about that situation and nothing appears to have been done about it. Now two people are dead; one a fire chief; and numerous people are still unable to return to their homes. This will be precedent-setting and very, very costly to all concerned. No one wants to have to file a suit after someone gets seriously hurt or killed in the Tim Horton's parking lot; no one really wants to file a suit at all. I was told by Mr. Harrop that Tim Horton's has "remedies" that would be put into place to resolve the issue. The people in the neighbourhood are
still waiting.
Solve the loitering problem. Get Fonz, Richie, Potsie and Ralph Malph arrested for hanging out.
Better yet charge and convict Larry Curly, Moe and shemp!!
I hear Strom is under investigation and got his ass kicked by head office.
One of the Tim horton trolls said that Strom warned them that HQ will be installing cameras.
Strom and the Town will still be liable for the misery they caused.
Finally. There may be a mainstream newspaper story about the problem soon. A reporter was seen in the area on Thursday, interviewing people and taking pictures. Maybe the beleaguered people of the area will finally get a good night's sleep. And maybe a tragedy will be averted.
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