This was his vision for the Bay Beach waterfront. Not ours; his. This came from a man who commuted to work at town hall from Grimsby. This is the man who set the development of our public land into motion and this is the man who fled town to move on to another town and I'll bet he moved his family with him this time.
Now, he's gone, after leaving behind a contentious mess. How did a non-elected official have so much power in a community's future with little or no accountability to the people who pay his salary? He had already taken Ward 5 councillor Martha Lockwood on a junket to Port Credit to show her what could be done to Crystal Beach - before he even brought up the possibility of developing the Bay Beach Properties. This scheme was in his head for a long time; he waited until Doug Martin was elected and he sprung his idea (where did that come from anyways?) on council first chance he could, using the excuse that selling portions of the Bay Beach Properties would bring in much-needed revenue. Then the scheme, under his direction, morphed into a Public Private Partnership (P3) and the rest is history.
All it took was a vote on council and the game was afoot. No matter what the opposition did, it was not enough to stop the juggernaut of the Mostacci
So, in a little over a week, the next chapter in the on-going dispute will play out in Superior Court in Toronto. Mostacci should be there, but he probably won't. He has already moved on and has no intention of further defending his grand idea.
We are left with the clean-up. And clean it up we will.
54 comments:
Sharon we should you have and your friends decide on the vision of Crystal Beach. How is going so far??
Crystal Beach is in the stone ages
The "vision" for Crystal Beach was laid out in the C.A.U.S.E. Study and the Neighbourhood Plan that was worked on for years by local volunteers. It was voted on in 2005. It was town staff and then new mayor Martin who sought to make changes to the basic blueprint for Crystal Beach.
There are many who are working towards bringing Crystal Beach towards the future. It takes a lot of hard work and money to invest in a deteriorating community. There is a vibrant life in Crystal Beach; the people I talk with want it to stay laid-back and artsy. And lots of them put their money where there mouth is by buying cottages and fixing them up.
I wish you could see Provincetown or Martha's Vineyard in Massachusettes. Lovely places where the beach lifestyle is celebrated. Not with high rise condos, but with quaint old-fashioned buildings and new condos that conform to the character of the area.
Have you seen some of the new developments in Crystal Beach - or the plans for the ones on deck? They all fit in with the rest of the houses in the area. No one is opposed to those. Ever wonder why? The answer should be obvious: they fit in.
The Molinaro Tower does not. You can dress it up; make distorted graphics; manipulate the data; and even put lipstick on it.
It's still a pig.
Sharon I hope you do not mind me adding my two cents worth, as a person that has many years of real estate experience. I can understand how citizens can resist change, but if I could, I would like you to pretend for a moment that we are going back in time, maybe 100 years or so ago. Let us further pretend that there were no houses on Crystal Beach drive. Can you imagine what people must have been saying when detached homes/cottages were going to be built on the South side of the road. I think you would agree that there would have been strong opposition from the locals.
What i am tryings to say is that times change, things change. What is constant is that Crystal Beach (along with Fort Erie) needs a huge economic shot in the arm. The condos are a start!!!! The residential developements that you allude to unfortunately have no market place as of this time. If there is no market for the condos then let it be. Let economics take its course.
Artsy is not making it happen now!!!
John V
It's a different culture at Martha's Vineyard as is Mystic Connecticut. It would be wonderful that our communities would embrace all of our waterfronts, but we are fractured and will not work with one another.
All the closures at the North End of Fort Erie far outweigh a condo battle, sorry......
Sorry link didn't work
Another Blast from the Past
I don't have much to comment on this blog often. But did you know that a seller by the name of Harry Schlange has his house for sale in St Catharines? A very nice property within a few hundrd yards of Lake Ontario with no tower to obstruct access? Is this the same staff member of Fort Erie who had little or no problems with building a tower on prime beach property in Fort Erie? As many have said prior, a smaller tower on the north side would have been preferable, however with a developer looking at pristine beach how could he not bully The Town staff to agree to a south side deal? The East FE proponents think any development at any cost is great idea, and state they have spent many days & months confirming that the Bay Beach development is brilliant & have spouted their due diligence & business expertise as thorough & complete to ensure this is a forward looking development to the future of Beach front properties . What a pile of nonsense. There is NOT 1 tower on the lake front of Hmiltom/Burlington - all are across the road leaving public access open- to the waterfront. None are on the beach - except for a building 3 floors built 20 years ago. The commentary by someone in the know who stated " he investigated" is a pile of pie in the sky BS. Frankly - how many folks are willing to spend over $300,000 for a unit in this tower? The developer needs 70% commitment before he can even build ( the standard now required by the Lenders), if the Marketing of this development is geared to the Americans well good luck- this could take awhile, the Canadian Condo Market is about to take a dive, which is why the luxury condo in st catharines has not even started to dig or apply for a permit. Quit screwing up the most vaulable asset the town of fort erie has - BTW the building of Mad hats is now for sale. TOO much political interference by the OBB negative brigade? Even if the Feb. 8th lawsuit isn't decided pon, nothing will change on the beach access - the developer is NOT committed to any improvements except for plastic fencing - such an attractive entrance, what a tourist attraction !! All FE taxpayers
are going to pay for this nightmare.
Sue Ann
John, I don't follow your example about Crystal Beach Drive. Your side of the argument is always saying to stay in the present or look to the future, so I don't know why you're bringing up a scenario that did not take place. Are you saying that there is no market in Crystal Beach for single, one or two story dwellings or town houses? That the only way to the future is through building high rises on the shore? There are plenty of examples of communities that limit structure height and do very well. The "draw" for people to move to Crystal Beach is the beach. In the past ten years or so, affordable housing has also attracted home buyers. You must know people who come to Crystal Beach, either from Toronto or Buffalo and spend weekends - even in the winter. I know several who have winterized cottages and use them as weekend retreats regardless of the weather. First time home buyers and retirees also make up many of those who choose to live in Crystal Beach permanently.
I just drove through the beach earlier today and noticed "Sold" signs in several places, mostly cottages that had been for sale since summer. Someone is buying property in the Beach. Another couple I know who spend weekends in Crystal Beach are looking to sell their cottage on a side street as they want to buy a place right on the lake. No, they're not looking to buy a condo unit in the Molinaro Towers; they live in a high rise in TO. The wife is from the area originally, but her work is based in Toronto. She and her husband look forward to weekends in the Beach where they can get away from the hustle and bustle of TO. Same with friends from Buffalo.
And these people pay taxes all year round, like other so-called "summer residents."
@ 3:10 from previous thread
Their lawyers and the town lawyers might have prevailed within a planning system that has a widely recognized development bias but can you at least understand (even theoretically speaking) that prevailing might not be the same thing as the condo being a good idea for ridgeway crystal beach ?
I know math is hard but I can’t believe that you really believe this stuff …
The property we are talking about has 400 feet of lakefront on a pristine sand beach and you think it is worth $400,000 …
First, the Town itself purchased an appraisal for the purpose of this deal that valued some portion of that land at $2.7 million
Second, staff reports to council that were used to provide the rational for this stupid project used a valuation of approximately $950,000 per acre
Third, just sit there for a few minutes and think this through – 400 feet of waterfront property – and let’s say no condo – even with the lowest possible density i.e. single family residential – you could have 6 nice size building lots approximately 65 feet wide – how much are they worth each ? $300,000? $400,000? $500,000? X TIMES 6 = $1.8 - $3.0 million
And you are going to sell me your land for $400,000 ?
SOLD !
And now I betcha you feel like you sold too soon !
… should I even start on the valuation used for the so-called amenities ?
You say $2 million – I think the official number is up to almost $3.5 million
First, we don’t want these amenities. If we were given a $2 – 3 million budget for amenities, we would not build toilerts in the flood plain and we would not build a carpeted meeting room with bad fluorescent lighting in the bottom of a condo building to masquerade as a community centre appropriate for a lakeside community
Second, the amenities the community actually wants would probably cost less than $1 million
Third, if ridgeway crystal beach came to council and asked for $2-3 million to pay for these amenities, you would have a pink cow ! But halleluiah ! we could then both agree that spending this much money for these amenities is beyond foolhardy ! And make no mistake about it - we are spending that money … it doesn’t look like we are, but we are. And it just ain't worth it ...
Finally – the town can still get significant concessions from developers who might want to build a condo on private property. The by-law you mentioned earlier that requires beach to be given to the town as a condition of development is a good example of one way concessions can be had …
The land was only appraised at 2.7 million because of the zoning change. Why is it so hard to wrap your head around it? You call it pristine. Is that what you call ruined buildings and concrete? It was zoned for a condo and that directly impacted the appraisal. None of you have a clue what this deal was about nor have you read it. I know you didn't read it because you are not even close to commenting on what the deal was really about. Why is it that those in business, those in real estate and those in law all agreed that this was a good deal but the local cottagers all insist that it was a bad deal? Look, I can accept that you are threatened by this condo. You like Crystal Beach with it's 1950's appeal. I get that, but to make up stuff like this was a bad deal, or incite fear into people to gain support by getting them to believe that the beach was somehow going to become private is just wrong. It's the lies and the tactics that have woken most of us up. To be honest, I think you all should be ashamed of yourselves. The energy alone to stop this condo could have been more use towards real issues. All that money raised could have gone towards so many better and more worthy causes. This is your legacy. This is your embarrassment.
This is what the town's public relations site says about the extent to which they checked out various options for how to best develop public land at Crystal Beach. They talked to two groups. Two. I suggest they should talk to more.
Council, during its 2008 budget deliberations, elected to again consider the possibility of a public-private partnership, in order to provide public amenities. Staff subsequently sought out two Ontario developers with waterfront experience to provide proposals. Council has chosen to proceed with the proposal of the Molinaro Group.
Only and idiot or the corrupt would support and highrise condo on the last OPEN public waterfront lands.
If you really buy the scam that this will help the economy of the fed up town then you reall ARE a fool and sell out very cheaply. RThe former staff, developers, mayor Hommer simpsion and the coerrupt previous clowncil have taken all you idiots for a ride.
Wake the F up!
$400,000 ?
You expect us to believe that the land is now worth less than half of what it was when the town bought it in 2001 ?
Give me a break ! Weirdo
The real risk of embarrassment to us all is not so much the loss of the condo but rather the public recognition of the bad deal made on behalf of the good people of Fort Erie.
And bingo, another slanderous post on the strand. Wow! You say the last council was corrupt yet offer no proof whatsoever. Do you even know what corruption is? Here is an example. Lets say a councilor presides over a bingo license appeal for a group that he is a member of. Or how about meeting with the lawyer that is suing the town? How about taking donations from a fake water preservation group for your campaign? Or getting audited and admitting in the audit review that you knew that one of your donations came from a US citizen but blamed someone else for it. Does that sound like corruption?
nature lover - We live 90 minutes from Toronto where they added approximately 20,000 new condo units last year. But we could only find two builders with the 'waterfront development expertise' to prepare a site plan for Bay Beach. Wow !
I would be careful how far you go with your bingo license slander as one of the lead proponents has a very jaded past with this, yet has no problem trying to silence the opposition with what they are guilty of. This is at the very least hypocritical, but I'm certain a few stronger words could be chosen.
So, an 87 unit, twelve story condo is gonna solve all Crystal Beach's economic woes. Read THIS and weep.
Dottie Gallagher-Cohen, President and CEO of Visit Buffalo Niagara, told us that Canadian shoppers are at an all time high here in Western New York. They are crossing the border to get more for their buck at their favorite stores, and supporting our local economy at the same time.
What are you going to do; make all Canadians stay home and shop locally? This is but one of the reasons that the economy of Fort Erie is in the tank. Yeah, keep building those condos and big box stores. That'll do it. Turn Garrison Road into a storeway just like any other community in the States - Wal-Mart and all.
Yeah, that and giving away one of our greatest assets and tourist draws will do it too. Where else will you find tens of thousands of people gathering in Fort Erie? Why not go for broke? Give away Waverly Beach as well. A high rise would fit in there just dandy. Oh, you don't want to upset your political cronies who live nearby? (Pity that.)
10,000's people at Bay Beach?
There have been weekends where the estimated number of people coming to Bay Beach has been around 20,000. Name any other event, other than the Friendship Festival that draws as many people. If one were to take a good long look at it, one would find that Bay Beach is one of, if not the biggest tourist draw in Fort Erie.
Do you really expect that to continue if the tower is built? The parking lots will be made to look like they are off-limits to day-trippers and the entrance to the beach at Bay Beach will be camouflaged to look like a private entrance. Already on the town's website, beach-goers are directed to the public beach through the Ashwood entrance. Once they get a look at the condo, they will go elsewhere and the word will get out.
Most of the people I talked with when we ran the snack bar across from the Bay Beach Properties told me, either that they had been coming here for years, or that they "heard about it" from friends. They loved coming to Bay Beach, run-down as it was. It was free and parking was only $5.00 at the lots across the street. Or free on the unpatrolled side streets.
And, contrary to what others would have you believe, they did spend money in the Beach. The problem shared by so-called "summer communities" is that it is difficult to maintain a year round presence. Difficult, not not impossible. One high rise will have no marked difference on that challenge. Clever marketing and off-season events will draw attention and keep people coming back. Not a condo tower looming over a public beach.
2:40 AM
We have read pretty much everything ever written about this property since it was purchased
And you my friend continue to promote the idea that the land is worth $400,000
We really do want new development but think that this proposal is dumb ...
The water and the sand ARE pristine. As are the weather, the breeze, the sunrise, the sunset ... nature is good ... people like it a lot
The buildings and concrete are a significant disappointment as you suggest
And you should be !@*# outraged that the only option the previous staff and council could come up with to deal with a simple maintenance issue, was to give our land away to a private developer to build a high rise !
And we should all be embarrassed that the condo has come to represent the height of our collective creativity and intelligence. That my friend is the real embarrassment for the community that will smart for generations to come.
All of the resources that BOTH sides have poured into this accident have been wasted. If we could have relied on the previous council and staff to generate and support a good idea, these resources could have been put to much better use ...
There are many professionals in business, real estate and law that have heard this thing quacking like a duck for years so do not imagine that all the smart guys and gals in the room support you because that is simply not true !
Ignorance, greed, and cronyism may be involved when a community decides to sacrifice its own best resources for short-term gain. Let’s consider another possibility, though: that there is some sincere desperation at work here. We all know that a drowning person is sometimes so frantic to get his next breath that he will climb upon his would-be rescuer and drown him. A farmer who is starving may eat the grain that he needed to plant as seeds in the coming spring.
Fort Erie’s economy has suffered as the amusement park was upstaged by Darien Lake, as bridge traffic has been hampered by 9/11, and as its hospital has been closed. All these events have meant a loss of jobs and a loss of desirability as a tourist, living, or retirement area.
Let me urge Fort Erie to persevere and realize that destroying your best assets is not the solution. Environmentalists are often faced with the challenging of convincing communities that their natural resources can be better used than by depleting them and that there are other ways to make the money they need. Often eco-tourism is an answer. Maybe some cute little shops and, eventually, a nice indoor mall (not on the beach, of course!), like the Galleria Mall in Buffalo. Maybe some spring or fall theatre like Niagara-on-the-Lake, or some concerts. You’re looking for ways to bring people here year-round, places for them to stay (like some attractive inns or resorts) in any season, and most of all, making Crystal Beach a beautiful place that people want to come to relax, live, work, or shop.
Your ace-in-the-hole, of course, is the public beach, and you need to protect it by all means. If you don’t destroy it first, the beach can pull you out of your economic stagnation. I know the beach issue has dragged on a longer time than most decisions to build buildings, but that’s because the condo-decision is vehemently opposed by many. That, in turn, is because the decision was made unilaterally, without sufficient consultation or opening this up to a wide field of investors.
Perhaps someone was under the mistaken impression that a developer can’t be from another town, much as you wouldn’t hire a roofer from 100 miles away to do your roof. In the case of project management for investments this large, let me explain, because I myself was a little surprised when I originally learned that construction management agencies often work on projects across the nation or literally across the globe. There are agencies of this caliber, some located nearby in Buffalo or Toronto, who design and manage important projects in Asia, Canada, the United States, South America, you name it. They use local workers to do the work. I’m sure they could understand the desire to keep the beach side of the road open and could find a design that maximally utilized the north side of Fort Erie in a truly appealing and appropriate way.
You can always give away your public beachfront to someone later if you really decide that is what you want to do. But before you do that, open this concept up to people besides the two local firms that were consulted before one of them was chosen. Don’t limit yourself to locals in trying to find the investors and experts you need. Your future depends on getting out of this Molinaro deal or convincing Molinaro to switch to focusing on developing the north side of Erie Road. Put your energy into figuring out how to do that, not how to hang onto the previous bad deal.
Hear Hear!!
Think about this, Fort Erie. Call a truce and compromise.
Don’t spend all the money you are about to spend on a lawsuit. No matter what happens, you will only have a significant portion of the town left angry. Plus, you will still have to await the finding of the Ministry of Natural Resources regarding the toads. Destruction of the toad homeland is clearly prohibited by law. Instead of forcing the MNR to be the bad guys no matter what they decide, find some common ground YOURSELVES and settle this before the court date.
Tell the Molinaro firm it’s the North side of Erie Road or nothing. I bet they take it. Show the Molinaros that the town is united against Molinaro’s purported (I haven’t seen them in writing, so I can’t be sure it exists) demand that the south side of Erie Road be where the condo is. Maybe Molinaro will decide to do something that will make the Molinaro firm the hero of this story.
If not, the Molinaro firm is showing its true colors, that they care nothing about the good will of the community of Fort Erie (which wouldn’t be surprising, since they are a business). Then use the money you would have put toward a lawsuit for some legal aid in getting out of this deal, and find another firm. A world-class one. You can start finding one by checking as close to home as Buffalo and Toronto.
I believe there are good people on both sides of this issue, and that there is really less disagreement among the vast majority of the town than there appears to be. Much of the polarization that has occurred is the result of name-calling, threats, and reprisals that have gotten incredibly vicious. The silent or anonymous members of the town are honestly afraid to speak up for fear of ostracism or worse.
You all want Crystal Beach development. You all want the beach to be public (I think). The most direct route to making the beach public is to make it open, and to beautify it and provide a place for day-trippers to change their clothes. Make it a wide gorgeous beach replete with freely-hopping endangered-species toads and natural vegetation.
Let people see the beach from the road, and give them a place to park on the other (north) side of the road, preferably underground or on a ramp (but go ahead and charge for parking). Then put something lovely on the north side of Erie Road over the parking facility. Maybe a combination condo/inn so people can stay for a few days, for a season, or for the rest of their lives.
Then shops and restaurants will spring up all around, entertainment will become profitable. You will be heading in the direction that you all want to head.
Forget the feud you’ve had as quickly as possible, and remember that the other side felt hurt and cheated just like you did. Forgive them and move on together toward something that everyone can live with and that can bring prosperity and pride to the town of Fort Erie.
I rejected a post that was an attempt to distort information about the Friends of Crystal Beach.
First: The Friends of Crystal Beach voted to donate $5000. from its general account to the newly formed FEWPA. This was long before the lawsuit was even discussed or filed.
Second: the real reason the FOCB is under fire and its bingo license pulled is because an FOCB member, who was not happy that the group voted to use bingo funds to donate to the Waterfront Park playground instead of the "Beautification Committee," threatened to have the license pulled. I was in attendance at the meeting; she was very angry that her request for more money for her committee was turned down. She also voted against the donation to FEWPA as did a couple of others, but the majority voted in favour of using funds from the General Account for the donation to FEWPA.
This was a group decision, conducted in a democratic way. The complaint was simply sour grapes.
So what you are saying is that the FOCB has two bank accounts.
Yes, there has to be some kind of way to keep money separate. All organizations have to keep bingo money separate from their general fund as there are very stringent rules about how lottery/bingo can be spent.
Did you not know this? Anyone who has been in an organization that has a bingo license would know this. The FOCB had a very competent treasurer who gave a full report at each meeting of the General Account balance and deductions as well as the bingo account balance and deductions.
A lot of organizations have dropped their bingo licenses; the benefits are not worth the hassle. Bingo workers must be members of the organization; the revenue is way down and complaints like the one filed against the FOCB can scare off others.
Too bad there wasn't more scrutiny of bingos back when Rick Shular, Russ Wilson and Doug Martin were heavily involved in charity bingos.
Ya gotta love Nature Lover. He/she wants a compromise called "My way or the highway".
The compromise I'm trying to strike is between pro-condo and anti-condo Fort Erie residents. I'm not trying to strike a compromise with Molinaro. The pro- and anti-condo Fort Erie residents should reach a compromise with one another and together tell Molinaro it's our-way-or-the-highway.
Actually, it is far too late for a compromise. The town had an agenda and that agenda was to divest itself of the Bay Beach Properties in order to make money. The only question is: who made the money? It was certainly not the taxpayers, nor will the taxpayers benefit from this transaction. The cost of maintaining the beach and the "amenities" including the toad habitat fall on the town. The tax revenue from the condo is chunk change compared to the town's responsibility.
The town never wanted to compromise on this. Yes it was a "done deal." The town never realized that people wouldn't accept the deal without question. Usually they did. Maybe it was the Americans; someone woke the people up. That's why there has been constant and organized opposition to the Molinaro project since the beginning. Did anyone from the town sit down and give the people other options? No.
And the question still remains: who is really going to benefit from this development?
Yes there were options.
Option One:
do not buy the property because the town did not have the money to do it
Option Two:
buy the property on the condition portions get sold off to recoup the money the town did not have and to also insure the beach will remian public.
Yes, that was one of the options, but that changed when the money to buy the property was raised through gaming revenue and secondly, in 2003 there was a very vocal outcry from the people that no portion of the property be sold that was backed up and voted on in 2005. As former mayor Wayne Redekop explained: it was thought that the north portions could be sold, but he realized that was not the will of the people, so he voted to accept the Neighbourhood Plan of 2005, put together by volunteers and town staff that called for the retention of all the property. As you will recall, the C.A.U.S.E. Study recommendation was for the possible sale of the north sections of the property, which it recommended that the town buy if it became available, could be sold off in order to buy more waterfront property.
You know all this; it has been pointed out a million times, yet you continue to try to change the facts.
Anonymous 1:07—Okay, so they chose your option 2, and I don’t think anyone has an argument with that. But once option 2 is selected, there are more options (a,b,c etc.) to consider: (a) What portions should be sold off? (b) To whom should they be sold? and (3) For what type of development should they be sold? Those are important options that seem to have been decided in favor of a Molinaro highrise without extensive research.
Editor--Regardless of how this has been (mis)handled in the past, don’t you think there might be some compromise possible now if some people from both sides could put aside the “us” against “them” mentality and band together? What is it that each side wants? The pro-condo people want a condo. The anti-condo want an open beach. Putting the condo on the north side of Fort Erie is an obvious compromise, and the only argument I’ve heard against it is that Molinaro won’t make enough money that way. So offer this deal up to another developer who thinks they can make enough money by developing the north side, and this whole problem is solved, right?
What I was trying to say is that the town has dug its heels in, from the get-go to develop the land and the town offered up the best part of the land to a developer. No compromise there. "This is what we're going to do and you're going to like it." Then the campaign began to get everyone to take this bitter pill. A group did come forward with a plan for a six story building. This was a local group. They were not even given the time of day.
There is a line in the sand. Both sides of the issue refuse to cross that line. In our case, we have been lied to and given misinformation. We do not trust that the town has the best interests of the people at heart. The idea of development of the Bay Beach Properties has been in their wheel-house since the get-go.
Anyone who spends any time at the beach has seen "the suits" visiting the property going way back to when it was bought by the town. Developers visiting the beach stood out like sore thumbs.
Nature Lover, I have admire you passion, but please nobody, and I mean NOBODY is going to want to build a condo on the North Shore. IMHO a north shore complex would not sell.
Presently we have your "open beach" and the commercial aspects are very poor. Even in the summer with the "thousands' of visitors there is nothing happening on Hotdog alley. Even with that in mind I think Sharon had the restaurant at the foot of the bay beach and I think she would agree that she was not setting sales records.
Therefore change has to happen, we have somebody that wants to put up their own money to hopefully give us an economic shot!!!
John, I guess you forgot the effort to sell off the north portions back in 2003. We were told then that a development on that side would "spur economic development" just like we were told the same thing when the CBTYC was developed. Didn't happen. That was a time when certain people at the town level discouraged the formation of a Business Improvement Area. It was not until much later that it became a reality. The FOCB started in order to lobby for improvements at the beach. And now it is under attack because the group did not agree with the town divesting itself from portions of the Bay Beach Properties, something the town has been trying to do since the property was bought in 2001. Why that property? Why not Waverly Beach?
As to the restaurant biz: we took over the restaurant after many others had failed. There were a number of factors involved in whether such an operation can be a success. Very short season; not winterized; ancient equipment; landlord issues; etc. The person who ran it previous to us suffered a great financial loss because of poor weather. The one good thing it had going for it was location. The only people who made any real money in the place were the owners of the building. It was a roller coaster ride as far as profits go, but we did OK. It was not because we were losing money that we closed earlier than planned. Over the July 4th and Canada Day weekend, we sold out of food and ice cream and we had double stocked everything. I felt embarrassed when we had to close early. Later we found out we were not the only place that ran out of food. Almost everyone in the Beach was overwhelmed. So I would say that we did experience record-breaking sales - as did everyone in the Beach did that weekend.
Sharon please do not think I was taking a jab at you and or your business acumen. What I am saying is to my eye Crystal Beach needs a ton more to happen. You have written many times about the street dances, marathons, polar dips etc to help built up Crystal Beach. Those things are going on now and Hotdog alley still lays dormant. There comes a time where one has to stop the excuses and move on. 9-11 is long past, Canadian dollar is going to go up and down. Economies change.
I have no idea what happened in 2003, but can tell you that 100 percent a north shore condo is not going to sell. As I have mentioned many many times, the condo is not going to be the Crystal Beach saviour, but it is a start.
John—Why not just TRY and see if an investor is interested in building on the north side of Erie Road and keeping the south side an open beach? There are plenty of condos all over the world that are on one side of a narrow road while an open beach is on the other. It’s not a problem there, so why is it a problem here?
Honestly, though, what I think Crystal Beach needs more than condos is a nice inn/hotel. People would LOVE to stay right near the beach overnight without having to buy a house there. The Canoe Club has a few units for rent, and they fill up months in advance. Visiting the beach could be an attraction year round if there was someplace pleasant to spend a night or two or more, maybe with fireplaces and jacuzzis. Has that possibility been considered?
Finally, there are some pretty run-down, seedy-looking buildings in Crystal Beach that appear to me to be vacant. What’s up with that? Does somebody own them? Are they for sale? They should be torn down if they are abandoned. Just getting rid of the eyesores would go a long way toward making Crystal Beach more attractive.
Nature lover, with all due respect , why would somebody , say want to come down to Crystal Beach and stay over for a day. What would they do??
Nature Lover, you have come to the table late. Way too late. Everything you have posted was brought up last year. It is a done deal now and it is best to just move on.
As for how land is valued, it has to do with what you can do with the land. Maybe John can help me explain this better.
Land holds value based on it's use. Before the zoning was changed you couldn't build a condo on it. So the land was not as valuable as it is now. When people talk about the town giving away land worth $2.7 million they are not understanding or accepting that the land is valued that high because you can now put a condo on it. No matter what anyone says in this blog, this is the simple truth. Without this condo that land is no where near the value it is at now. So when you post that the town gave away land worth millions that is false. Not true! Misinformation! Nobody in their right mind is going to invest $2.7 million dollars on a property in Crystal Beach just to put a cottage on it. It just doesn't work that way.
Above, you are trying so very hard to justify development on public land that it must hurt when you grab it from your nether regions. Sorry, that's the only explanation for the distorted and revisionist way you look at the issue.
No one will explain why the Waverly Beach lands were not put on the block for development. Why just the public Bay Beach Properties? If it is not worth much, why was the town so anxious to unload it?
I don't care how much its market value is; to us it is priceless.
I think you put it very well. In plain English, the legislation states that what ever the value is increased by the change of zoning. The developer/builder must give back in ammenties. Ie . If a parcel of land was worth 100k as a residential lot, and the zoning was changed to high density, let us say that the appraised value is now 200k. The builder than would have to give the municipaly 100k in local amenities.
Bowers, I am not reaching for anything and stop your mind from wandering. This was all explained too me from an actual real estate expert. This is true factual info that you should be understanding but it doesn't support your claims so you will dismiss it.
Here you go Sharon. I guess this is what you call reaching.
http://www.mpac.ca/pages_english/property_owners/assessment_guide.asp
John—
They would walk on the beach, mainly. Then visit some shops, go out for dinner, then come back to their room to lounge or read. Maybe they would golf or take in a movie or rent a video. You know, the stuff people do when they take a trip to relax. Do some antiquing, visit some fruit and vegetable stands, go ice skating or biking. It all depends on the season, but there are lots of things to do here for fun if you don’t have to race back home because you have nowhere to sleep.
The lake is beautiful year-round. Perhaps you have to be a nature lover to understand, but many people are nature lovers, and there are inns all up and down shorelines everywhere set up just so people can do this type of thing.
If you can’t see why anyone would come down to Crystal Beach and stay over for a day, why do you think anyone would come down there to live permanently in a condo? I must admit, that could get dull, which is why I’m not sure this 12-storey thing will work out on either side of Erie Road.
Anonymous 4:42--
It is not too late. This is still being hotly debated, and the town is about to enter into a needless lawsuit over this with people who care enough to put up their own money for the beach and, were this argument settled, would be able to spend that money on improving rather than fighting for it. There still could be a settlement out of court.
With regard to how the land is valued, I didn’t ask any questions about it or make any claims about it, I don’t think. If I were to enter into your argument, I would say that now that the land has been re-zoned, it is worth $2.7 million, and you are giving it away. Now that it has been re-zoned, you could sell it to any developer for $2.7 million, not necessarily Molinaro. My position is that the beach should not have been re-zoned and should not be sold at any price. The south side of Erie Road should be a park that is no more up for sale (whether it be to construct a cottage or a condo) than any other public park. And the developer who invests in the property on the north side of Erie Road should be given the assurance that the public park will always be a public park that enhances his own property,
John,
I would like to respond to your post of 3:12
Certainly, your passion on this issue is sincere and I respect your opinion. However, their are a few things to consider.
The first and most important is that there is a signed agreement wbetween the town and the Molinaro group. Everything was done legally and above board on the part of both parties. For the town to back out of this development at this time will result in a lawsuit against us.
I agree 100% with your comment about the " run-down, seedy-looking buildings in Crystal Beach" but others refuse to acknowledge this.
Finally, I don't think a inn/hotel would work as it would only have clientel during the summer months.
The right thing to do wouldn’t be to just pull out of the deal. You would first put it to Molinaro that it has become clear that the best thing for the community is to move the project to the other side of the road. You understand that this cuts down the value of the land that is being transferred and you therefore expect less in the way of “amenities” in return. If you think Molinaro will at that point sue you, then do you really think you’re working with the right developer?
Most contracts are full of contingencies, and I bet this one is too, and that a good lawyer could find them. True, I haven’t seen the contract and I’m not a lawyer. My guess, though, is that most people who are convinced the town can’t get out of this contract have not read the contract and aren’t lawyers.
Unless you WANT the deal the way it is, why keep saying the deal can’t be changed without even trying. TRY to get the deal changed. TRY to sell the land on the north side. If neither of these sincere efforts work, then I’ll have to accept what you’re saying. But otherwise, I’m suspecting either that some of you WANT to have the beach essentially private, for reasons I can’t fathom, or that some people in this town are suffering from the sense of hopelessness and helplessness that accompanies clinical depression. Or, here’s another possibility. This one is really weird, but it’s possible: are you doing this to spite the Americans who want a public beach?
You have a beautiful beach. Americans who live just over the bridge love it and always have. They’ve bought expensive estates all along it and built successful yacht clubs and gated communities. If they don’t have a cottage or a unit at the CBTYC, or if their cottage isn’t winterized, they can’t spend as much time here as they would like to. That’s why I think an inn/hotel would be good, and you should SEE if anyone wants to build one. But that point is secondary. The main thing is that, whether or not these visitors have a cottage, when they come here, they want there to be a readily accessible public beach without a condo-skyscraper on it. This is reality.
You’re wishing for some different people to come here from somewhere else for some other reason, apparently, even though it will make your current customers unhappy. Why? Why not play to the people who already love it here and who are raising tons of money to keep the beach public? Is there a rational reason?
4:42
hey Miss Information
you can't just sit there and fart and say it's not worth this much, its not worth that much
if not 2.7 m, what is the land on the lake worth ?
how much would someone pay for 65 feet of frontage ? 200 k ? 300 K 500 k ?
factoid: staff proposed selling the northeast parking lot for $560,000 in 2005
nature lover makes sooooo much sense !
it's just so obvious if you really do care enough to concentrate and think it through
try it for a bit ... just suspend the dogmatic belief that all we need is a sexy residential real estate development to get things going ...
john - if you could do only one thing as a real estate professional to help me sell my property, what would it be ?
John - As a realtor you are a total ass when it comes to evaluating lakefront properties. Where do you get the unmitigated
nerve to even suggest that the lake front/ beach properties are only valuable to condo's? Your understanding of tourist attractions is greatly lacking in judgement.(professional judgement). I would question when was the last time you actually visited the beach(in primetime summer as opposed to mid February when only the sea gulls are visisible.) It would seem to me that you are a typical non Crystal beach supporter & therefore do not recognize the value of anything unless it is made of concrete.Why would anyone even consider your thoughts on this development. Maybe you should move to Toronto!!!
Peter B.
@ 4:57
Could you ask your actual real estate expert for some true factual info on what the 2.1 acres south of erie road was worth before the zoning was changed to allow for a 12 story condo ?
(please note that the previous zoning was General Commercial C2 which allows commercial on the ground floor and residential above)
I assume the value will be greater than zero and so could you also explain why the town is giving the land away for free ?
When people are insulted, their hearts and minds close up and they band together more furiously with people who give them moral support. So I think that when someone comes over to the “enemy’s” site and respectfully tries to explain their point of view, we should work very hard to fight the natural urge to jump down their throat because we disagree so strongly and/or because we felt they were being patronizing or obstinate, or whatever. In one week, the war will resume full out, but if there is any way to avoid the war, it would be to have a dialogue with people who are at least willing to speak with us coherently. I apologize if I have said anything offensive to either side. I am new to the scene and wasn’t here for all the hurtful events that have gone before, so it should be a little easier for me to believe that at least some pro-condo folks might still be reachable.
I’m wondering how there came to be a number of people in this town who are supporting the decision to turn an immensely popular public beach, the main “industry” of the area, into the backyard of a private condo-skyscraper. I’m imagining how this could happen in general for a hypothetical township that decides to give away a public asset. Let’s say for discussion that a town decides to give a public park to a local strip-miner. Why would a town do that? Perhaps because they sincerely think they will make more tax money from the strip miner than from the tourists and townspeople who used to frequent the park. Or, perhaps because they are friends with the strip miner or even because the town accepted a bribe from the strip miner. (Please note: I am not claiming any bribes were accepted in the hypothetical town. I AM saying that an objective outsider would wonder if there were.) Or perhaps, they just didn’t give the matter enough thought and succumbed to the sales pitch of the strip-miner.
How could the hypothetical town keep anyone from questioning their decision? Of course, they would try to convince everyone that the town would be better off with a strip mine located smack dab where their lovely park used to be. But an even more effective way to squash any questions would be to tell everyone that the decision had been already made and they’d better be scared, because the town would be sued by the developer if they changed their minds. This would have the desired effect of convincing many people that anyone who questioned the strip-mine decision was threatening the town and, by extension, themselves.
In this way, there could be some good people that were won over to the side of the town and strip-miner. These people might actually fight anyone who said, “But wait, our park shouldn’t have been sold without our consent to a strip-miner in the first place.” Isn’t it possible that those good people might, if they were given the benefit of the doubt, realize what was happening with the strip mine and begin to stand up for the rights?
That's what I'm hoping.
The deal is inked.
It is NO LONGER a matter of public opinion. [Mayor martin and martha lockwood never would even listen to our point of view] That is why the yellow signs came down even before the OMB hearing. Public opinion was never considered, the deal had been arranged way back.
I hope on February the 8th, after the judge listens at the hearing that it will end. It's only one man's opinion though.
Okay, so let’s accept that it is no longer a matter of public opinion, and that the local government has already made up its mind. There MIGHT be someone who has the ear of the local government that could have a little epiphany, and as a result of that change of heart, say to the people pushing this through, “You know, maybe we should back off a little. Look what this is doing to our town.”
I bet there are at least some pro-condo people who are still thinking about things. This forum provides a place where they and we can ask questions without revealing our identities. I for one would be otherwise afraid to speak up in the face of what I can readily observe online is a ruthlessly hateful and back-stabbing environment that has sprung up in this unfortunate town, torn to shreds as it has been by this issue. (I am morally opposed to being dishonest in even the most apparently trivial way, and this includes making up fake e-mail addresses. There’s a slippery slope when one starts trying to decide when and when not to be truthful, so I choose to always be truthful.)
It seems to me that pro-condo people think that pro-beach people don’t understand what the beach is worth, i.e, that it is worth much more (on paper) in dollars when a condo is built on it. We do understand that. We just don’t find it relevant. Let’s say I went to the town of Niagara Falls and told them I would pay them a trillion dollars for the land surrounding their waterfall. My plan is to build a large new settlement there for people from Saskatoon who I believe will come and live there. A trillion dollars may be more than the land calculates to be worth from some formula based on zoning , and it may be more than another buyer is willing to pay and therefore more than the falls is actually “worth.” So, I tell the leader of Niagara Falls, “You lucky dogs, if you re-zone your falls and let me build my settlement, I will be making your waterfall and the land around worth more than they were previously worth.” Should the leaders of Niagara Falls take my offer? Not if they care even a teensy bit about their people. If they are responsive to their residents, they will not take the land around the falls away from the people of Niagara Falls and sell it to me for any price. Nor will they give the people’s precious land surrounding the falls in exchange for my building any kind of sidewalks and buildings I might construct there. It belongs to the people, and giving away their unique natural asset would be wrong.
I acknowledge that I could be missing something, but I’m here to say, to an outsider it looks as though the residents of Fort Erie had their natural assets sold out from underneath them by their own local government. I acknowledge that I am not privy to all the political bickering that has preceded the current situation. However, I don’t really think I need to know any of that or that any of that matters at this point. What I am interested is not the past but the present and the future. This is where the town is: giving up its one established asset in a pie-in-the-sky move to attract new people to their town even though that move will clearly alienate the people who formerly represented its main source of income. AND, on top of that, facing a lawsuit and an environmental violation investigation. If this isn’t where the town wants to be, perhaps it’s time for a compromise. What is the minimal amount of development the pro-condo people would settle for, and what is the maximal amount of development the pro-beach people would settle for?
I have seen the Editor post some sincere replies from condo-supporters, and I look forward to reading more. Time is running out. This is pretty much the last chance for reasonable people from both sides to get together and end this sorry episode in a positive way.
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