Mike Insalaco visited Bay Beach recently and took a bunch of pictures. Here's what happens when it gets windy and the lake does not freeze over thanks to warmer temperatures.
Somewhere beneath all this shove ice is the site for our promised outhouse in the sand.
144 comments:
A what a wonderful outhouse and toad amusement park it will be !!!
I am of the impression that the supporters of this blog no longer hold the same concern for the Fowlers Toad that they expressed a year ago.
Why is this?
I can't sepak for others, but I am still very concerned about the Fowler's Toads. I believe that construction of a twelve story tower will decimate the toad population and the "toad habitat" is merely window dressing to make the MNR sign off on the project.
Hopefully, the toads will find another place to live because, like people, they will not want to be anywhere near the noisy, destructive construction on our shore.
This whole scheme, to me, is a travesty to our precious waterfront. We will never get that land back and the tower will serve as a symbol of the greed and arrogance of a few.
As I said in another thread, people really need to see The Descendants.
Well Said Editor!
We have co-habitated with the Fowler's toads for generations. I found out from Canada's Toad King, Dr. David Green that the Fowler's toads originated in Canada, not that Mayor martin cares one bit.
Let's hope that we can develop a solution that is best for our community and cares for the Fowler's toad. That would be wonderful! A lot of people would come to Crystal Beach because we care about biodiversity.
I love this blog. The comments are like a group of kids guessing at what the adults are doing, trying to figure out the mysteries of being an adult but never quiet getting it right.
It's called responsible stewardship!
People must see "The Descendants." George Clooney makes a speech at the end that sums up exactly how I feel about the Bay Beach Properties. I must try to get a transcript of his words.
It becomes quite apparent that the beaches are open and available to all in the movie. The same is true on Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. I'm sure that there are many other places where people can walk and enjoy the beaches as well. It's sad that the idea of "private beaches" has been ingrained in our neck of the woods.
(I still remember chain link fences stretching out into the water along the shore of Lake Erie. Hated that.)
I cannot help but notice the irony here.....the americans want all the beachfront in their country to be open to the public..for all to use. However...the americans that own cottages here on Candadian waterfront do NOT want us regular folk walking along the beach in front of their place. I have lived here for over 50 years so don't tell me this is not the case. Anytime we ever tried to walk along the beach past Rebstocks ..just walking along minding our own business...some angry american would come running out hollaring at us telling us that this was private property. Hmmmm...so you want to keep your beachfront public in your country but when you are fortunate enough and wealthy enough to own a second property in another country you want that beach front in front of your home private...just saying it sounds ironic to me.
Life long Crystal Beach resident.
The Fowlers Toad originated in Canada ???!!!
You and your so called Dr. David Green, Canada's Toad King ( never heard of him) need to do your homework and research before making such a stupid, erronious post.
I can partially agree with you. I have walked along the shore of Bay Beach numerous times and have never had such an incident, but I can imagine that it has happened. I also know that there are Canadians who live on the shore who have the attitude that they own the beach in front of their homes.
It goes way back and it must be stopped. When many families bought these summer homes on the lake, they were allowed or given tacit approval to believe that the beach belonged to them. That has been ingrained in them for several generations.
We must support Kim Craitor's bill in provincial parliament. Why has it not gone through? That is a question that needs to be answered.
Let's not turn this into an American vs. Canadian issue; it is not. It is an injustice that has been allowed to continue to the detriment of the people. And the fault should be placed on local and provincial governments for not taking a firm stand in this a long time ago.
I suggest that you join Shorewalk and give them a swift kick in the ass for dropping the ball on this issue. (BTW, there are many Americans in Shorewalk.)
Note to Council:
In order to be seen to be acting in the interest of ALL of Fort Erie, you need only consult the Bull Blog and Facebook in order to fully understand the constituency's view on all matters before you.
Council need not consult with any organized community group e.g. volunteer fire department, minor hockey association, yellow shirt brigade, health and wellness, chamber of commerce, BIAs, Kinsmen, Lions, jaycees, girl guides, communities in bloom, Bert Miller, Fort Erie Creeks, Shorewalk, literacy council, food banks, 1812, citizen's coalition, arts council, focus groups, random samples and ... FEWPA and FOCB (very vocal in their opposition to the current waterfront land use policy)
Good grief - with Council listening to the only so-called adults in the room at the Bull Blog and Facebook, it is no wonder we ended up in this mess !
Y'all need to grow up and work harder to try and string together a series of logical ideas into fully formed sentences and paragraphs that support your view on Bay Beach instead of simply repeating the compromised staff/developer position and hurling personal insults at those of us you claim to be having a meaningful discussion with ... betcha can't !
Wait STOP THE PRESSES! Bowers is actually making sense for once? We all agree that those beaches should be open to the public. But explain why you continue to support this law suit that was launched by some of those very people who kick people off what the deem to be their beach? Now that is Ironic. You support it because they are trying to stop this condo yet you don't seem to realize they are trying to stop it to keep the public off their beach.
If private beaches were a salient issue in the condo debate - and I really don't think they are relevant – but if they were, it should be acknowledged that the condo will actually make bay beach more private not more public. Breaking News ! The condos will be owned by private individuals not the Town of Fort Erie and there will be 87 very vocal private interests having a very strong influence on how what’s left of the public portion of the property is used.
BTW … any Canadian who owns a private beach in Fort Erie is going to defend private property rights as vehemently as any American. Having said that, I think most would support in principle, the right of passage with robust guidelines i.e. please don’t urinate on my beach
The real issues about the condo are not private beaches e.g. the ROI to the Town from this transaction is less than zero – the town is getting hosed / the planning precedent concerning the way waterfront land is used in Fort Erie – we should be protecting our natural heritage assets not destroying them / public parkland at Bay Beach would do more to support tourism development in Crystal Beach than a seasonal residential building etc etc
Anonymous said...@ January 21, 2012 1:30 PM You are just trying to twist things around. The people/groups, Both U.S and Canadian Citizens are trying to stop the Condo are NOT trying to stop anyone from using any beach! They we want to preserve the Beach Lands in their whole for all to enjoy! Please STOP insulting us and disrespecting our intelligence!
Where did you get the idea: "this law suit that was launched by some of those very people who kick people off what the(y) deem to be their beach?"
Who told you that? Someone from the Super PAC for the Molinaro Project?
Because it is simply not true. The lawsuit is about saving public lands for the people; it is about preserving a legacy that was sold to the people of Fort Erie by the Rebstock Family with the intention that the property be owned and used by the people in perpetuity.
(The "beach" is already "public." It belongs to the crown.) The property was a gift, so to speak, since the Rebstocks could have sold the property to a developer at a much higher profit. Instead, the town was able to buy the property using gaming revenue at no initial cost to the taxpayers. A win-win situation, one would think. But for not certain people at town hall, most of whom are no longer at town hall. Some have wanted to sell the property since it was bought from the Rebstocks.
Lately, it has been revealed that the Molinaros will have to further encroach on the beach with their site plan for the garage of the condo tower. The site plan is still a point of contention. It has many errors if one were to look at it closely. The OMB may be taking another look at the site plan because of concerns raised by the Nowak Family.
The issue is and has been since the beginning: we do not want any of the so-called Bay Beach Properties in private hands. It is ours: the people of Fort Erie. We want the property kept for public use forever. We would gladly volunteer and work to get improvements made to the property because we believe that it a legacy, for our generation, as it has in past generations, and for future generations to enjoy.
It's not about the Molinaros per se; it is about any private development on our public lands.
Just because you are ignorant regarding Dr. David Green's credentials don't tell me to do my research. He IS the expert, he has studied them for 23 years, and what do you know?
You soound like the same nut-case that once told me Dr. David Suzuki said the Fowler's toads were an invasive species, duh, and that's why they are now Endangered.
The pro-development-on-public-land people are just trying to draw attention away from the real issue.
Nice try.
Nice editorial/apology from Peter K. in response to the backlash his foolishness on Facebook.
What is a factual belief and a true fact ?
Who knew that everyone that didn't vote in the election wants council to give away public land on bay beach for a developer to build a condo ?
(Instead, perhaps the actual results of the election should be extrapolated to the whole population)
thank god pk is out there apologizing to the higher powers on behalf of the good people of fort erie
only the most naive observer would conclude that condo proponents have an exclusive monopoly of the facts
In reality, those opposed to the condo are incredily well informed of the facts and attended in number every public meeting on this issue since 2001 ...
I hate to burst anyone's bubble but there are global socioeconomic dynamics in play that effect employment and general commercial activity in fort erie that well beyond the control of our council ... our competition is not elsewhere in the niagara region but rather shenzen, seoul, mumbai
I want what you're smokin' 7:16 pm
Can't handle critical thinking can you, 8:12 p.m.
Someone (maybe me) will get an advanced degree for writing the sad history of the Bay Beach Saga. The story may serve as a template as to how a community can totally screw up and a few policy makers can screw over the town's own residents.
I can handle critical thinking .... it's unrational thinking that I have a problem with.
I didn't see evidence of either in that post.
Then why didn't you just say that in stead of taking a cheap shot? That is why the discourse about Bay Beach has gotten so toxic. The previous poster gave an opinion in a measured, cogent way. If you don't agree, state your case.
But certainly it is okay for the Editor to respond to a post suggesting it was written in a drunken stupor.
After all ..... you are the Queen of Cheap Shots.
*The Queen takes a bow*
I'm also pretty good at setting up a good sting. Ask Peter K. LOL.
Well .... glad to see that good ol' American ethics are alive and well in Canada.
You're just jealous. Good night.
hey 8:12 - 7:16 here - sheesh - not sure what to say really - 'i didn't inhale ?'
also not sure why no one over there ever seems to respond to the issues - y'all seem content to blather ...
tim and martha got slammed in the election and it had a lot to do with bay beach - the result altered the complexion of council because this is what the people of fort erie wanted and then voted for - that is the way the system is supposed to work
I just can't make the leap in logic that gets you from low voter turnout to majority support for the bay beach condo ...
although pk may be a prodiguous chef and a remarkably accomplished businessman, it is mildly patronizing that he feels compelled to apologize to outsiders for our oppostion to the condo - you see, we believe we are fighting the good fight here and that conservation of natural heritage assets should be the higher order object over the relatively simplistic project of selling water front condos ...
do you really really believe that the people pushing a deal whereby a public asset is transfered to a private actor for free in order to erect a for profit structure that truly has no place on the water front, would dispense objective data ?
fort erie will be fine despite our local government - as the broader economy improves and grows, there will be opportunities for its people ...
hey 7:16 .... 8:12 here.
And your response "i didn't inhale" I suspect was posted in the same light hearted humour that my post had been. But the Editor always has to interject and put here distorted spin on it.
Actually, my post was more about the effect of shenzen, seoul, mumbai on our economy here in Fort Erie moreso than the actions of the current council.
I could give a rats ass about the antics of Peter K and his group as I am not associated with them, but everytime someone posts their opinion which may follow the same corncerns as expressed by those same people the are labelled as being one of them which you did yourself when you posted " also not sure why no one over there ever seems to respond to the issues - y'all seem content to blather ..." .... I AM NOT one of them "y'all"
Got it !!!
Again, no one can seem to be able to post an opinion on this blog without being attacked, primarily by the Editor. And that my friend, is truly sad.
Lower turnout?? I don't think so. In the last election the turnout was 42%, much higher than prior elections and definitely not the 1/3 that the letter to the editor stated. Check the town's web site, you will see that I am right. Bay Beach was the major reason for this higher than normal turnout. Do I wish turnout was much higher abosolutely.
Bay Beach is important and it is a travesty that it continues to cause such turmoil. I for one hope that this council will find a way to stop it.
8:16 - dude - thank you for your conciliatory note
I appreciate that you might not belong to pk's clan. And acknowledge that that assumption might be disconcerting for you. However, given the opportunity, I would like to point out that condo proponents have repeatedly made the same mistake i.e. making assumptions about where the other party is coming from ...
You promoted the notion that everyone against the condo are all Americans with summer homes and private beaches to protect. In fact, many of us are Canadian - who-ha - born and raised. And we voted in number in the last election and we are almost delighted with the result. And we appealed to the OMB. And we donated to FOCB and FEWPA. And we support the Statement of Claim Plaintiffs.
We are Canadian and we will always believe that the condo is a really dumb idea. And our American friends who share in the fight, are some of the nicest, smartest people you might ever meet.
Dude - as I re-read your posts, I cannot find any real comment on a substantive issue other than an oblique reference to global economic competition from the Asian continent. Can you see how you end up primarily addressing tangential issues e.g. criticizing Sharon ?
I personally don't know Sharon but I appreciate that she continues to make this blog available for me to rant now and again. And because of that, I kind of feel like a guest in her house and so I won't put my feet up on the coffee table so to speak - just the way I was brought up. And besides, from what I have read of Sharon's comment on a variety of subjects, she is actually rather intelligent - sorry to break the news to you guys.
Criticism, even the apparent harsh criticism you lament, is not by any means the most sad aspect of the Bay Beach drama.
What is really and truly sad is that planning policy decisions, with serious implications for generations to come, are being made by actors with perhaps nothing more than self interest to guide them and without properly accounting for the long term health of the Ridgeway Crystal Beach community. No really ... seriously dude
This should be the focus of the discussion and not the personalities of the various commentators - there is really too much at stake.
If anything, there should have been far more rigorous criticism and scrutiny of this proposal long before it ever saw the light of day ...
Again - we do not believe that our public assets should be transferred to a private sector actor for free in order that he may erect a for profit structure that truly has no place on our water front.
First of all .... it's 8:12 not 8:16 ..... minor error ..... a little giggle ... no problem.
Next ..... it's dudette .... not dude .... another giggle .... no problem.
However, you have mistakenly labelled me for other posts which I have not made. My first was my "WANT WHAT YOU ARE SMOKING" post regarding this issue .... HONESTLY .... swear on my Father's grave.
Finally, I a happy for you that you "appreciate that she (Sharon) continues to make this blog available for me (you) to rant now and again." But 9:16, that is because your opinions and comments and posts coincide with hers, but other opinions that do not coincide or posts that correct untruths are cast aside. And that, dude, is contrary to the Freedom of Speech that we are all guaranteed by our constitution.
You will read here on the Strand only what Sharon Bowers, the Editor wants you to hear.
It is unlikely that this post will be accepted, so it will be copied, and I will be forced to join and submit this post on another site that does not discriminate or censor posts.
Respectfully,
8:12
What is everyone so uptight about?
According to the contract a certain number of units must be pre-sold before December. Consider both the prices these units will command and the less then grandiose route to the property and just perhaps sales will not reach expectation. Check the Molinaro Condo prices for Lake VIEW in Burlington.Its an eyeopener.Add huge monthly condo fees and the fees to park in the underwater garage and it will truly be a limited market.
g i g g l e
8 : 12 dudette
bla bla bla
not a shread of issue
what a drag
9:46 PM
EXCUSE ME ????
You have just justified the complete lack of integrity of this blog. Be me or be like me or shut up.
Posts like yours lack the intelligence of rational discussion which this blog supports.
In Sharon's words " Good Night".
812 - 716 here
If your only remaining point is to criticize Sharon personally and for the way she runs this blog, then you and I have nothing to discuss - Sharon is quite capable of speaking for herself
If however, you would like to explain why the condo is the best way forward for Ridgeway Crystal Beach, then please do - Sharon is certain to facilitate meaningful discourse by publishing competing ideas on the subject of waterfront development
Just try it ... you might like it, or not
Editor contrary to your ego you are still little league in my books
What's with "Anonymous said...
Editor contrary to your ego you are still little league in my books
January 23, 2012 11:03 AM"
and all the other nasty post from this person? Hay Dude what is your vested interest in all of this??
Interesting CNN analysis of Newt Ginrich's political play book, from which condo proponents seem to have torn a page ...
Attack the opposition ... they are Alien, Hostile and Dangerous !
Those of us against the condo have repeatedly been identified as aliens and defined exclusively as Americans meddling in local Canadian politics. In fact, most of us are Canadians with a franchise in local elections
We have been labelled as hostile in our attitude toward progress. Actually, we earnestly support progress but are perhaps more demanding in how progress should be defined in Ridgeway Crystal Beach. There seems to be more to progress than allowed by a speculative residential real estate development on public water front land
And finally, we and some councilors are considered scary dangerous to the community and as a result everyone is going to sue everyone's ass (how is that progress thing working for you ?) In reality, we simply insist that there has got to be a better idea
Thankfully we're not the guy trying to convince everyone else that the world might be round
Prime 23 .... I am going to type this v e r y s l o w because you obviously have a reading problem.
You posted " What's with "Anonymous said...
Editor contrary to your ego you are still little league in my books
January 23, 2012 11:03 AM"
and all the other nasty post from this person? Hay Dude what is your vested interest in all of this??"
Your reference to "dude" suggests that you are addressing me, as veryone else on this blog seems to be.
Now Listen ..... I did NOT make that post .... understand?
Obviously the question "what is your vested interest?" is to difficult to answer. You have to respond with rudeness!
This blog is nothing but a joke....typical Bowers nonsence.
Just Love the friction and hurtfull things going on. NOT.
We can't get one swimming pool for our children, but boy WERE BIG on Race Tracks, even motorways, and the kids of the TAXPAYERS GET NOTHING FOR THEIR CHILDREN.
oh yes a dangerous skate park for town staffs kids to use sorta day care at town hall. and no HOSPITAL . Give THE KIDS A POOL
OR FIND THEIR BODIES IN THE RIVER, LIKE I GREW UP WITH
Baby Hole Pump house. Coal docks
I've been sitting back a bit, but the last post needs a comment or two. I don't know that the skateboard park is strictly used by town staff's kids. Although I personally have some reservations about safety and location, it seems to be working very well for the community.
As to the Kinsmen Pool, I also agree that an outdoor pool is very important for the kids of our community. The present pool is a deplorable and unsafe place, but where is the money going to come from to fix it? Hopefully, the community will come together and come up with ways to fund a new pool in the same location. I also feel that there are some (YMCA -cough,cough) that do not want to see the outdoor pool survive. Better check out just who at town hall is for or against a new pool.
Just a suggestion. It's not as clear as it seems.
Kids have been swimming in the river since the earth was still cooling. Kids will always swim in the river, even with the pool.
I gladly answer your question with absolutely no difficulty.
I have absolutely no vested interest in any development, business, political activities of groups in this town other than being a taxpayer.
Rudeness .... How many times to I have to explain to you people that you are erroniosly labelling me with statements that I have not made. And check for yourself, those posts were a lot ruder than my posts of:
January 21, 2012 8:12 PM
January 21, 2012 9:41 PM
January 22, 2012 2:42 PM
January 22, 2012 7:51 PM
January 22, 2012 10:21 PM
January 23, 2012 4:42 PM
GOT IT ???? Read the posts that I wrote and those that others wrote towards me. Who was being rude?
Hey .... maybe you wrote all those posts.
Is there a reason they couldn't build this condo and underground/ramp parking on the NORTH side of the road, leaving the beach on the SOUTH side of the road open and natural? The condo dwellers would still have their pretty view, the public would have free and easy beach access, and the toads could have the whole beach as they always have had, with no need to try in vain to fence them and their tadpoles in a proscribed area and no need for people to surrender a specific plot to the toads. The beach wouldn't have its beauty spoiled by a glaringly out-of-place high rise. The town could charge for more parking, and people could enjoy more parking, because the underground parking could go in a larger area on the north side. Plus, underground parking wouldn't be such a problem on the north side because it would be farther away from the waterline. Am I missing something? All I've read is that the town didn't want to sell the north property because the town had already spent money on the north parking lot and didn't want to have wasted that investment. I think a few dollars invested in paving a lot is a small loss compared to the economic, aesthetic, and environmental loss that would be caused by taking a unique natural resource away from the public and giving to a private developer to turn into yet another high rise. There are enough high rises in the world. There aren't enough soul-soothing beaches. Save this lovely little beach as a lovely little beach. It's precious.
Are you missing something? Yes. You are missing the fact that nobody wants to invest millions of dollars on the north side.
"Is there a reason they couldn't build this condo and underground/ramp parking on the NORTH side of the road, leaving the beach on the SOUTH side of the road open and natural?"
Early on The Molinaro Group made it VERY clear they would walk away from any deal which moved their project to the north side yet they had no problem with proposing one south side tower as opposed to 2 which of coursed was billed as a "compromise".
I wonder what else might be "compromised" if the north side was included at some point?
Probably no one would want to invest a large amount of money into the north side of the road as long as the future of the south side of the road is uncertain. They wouldn’t want someone down the line to build something on the south side that would block their view. But what if the south side were designated a public park and kept in beautiful condition? Then the north side would be assured of maintaining its beachfront status. Don’t you think that, given that there aren’t a lot of other nice public beaches to go to, the north side would then be an attractive spot for someone to build a condo with parking?
The south side of Erie Road at Bay Beach was already designated as "parkland". We see how that worked out with the past council's careless attitude. We should protect what we can't manufacture.
The Kinsmen Pool will not be rebuilt.
Last year our council voted to take $378,000 from the reserve funds set aside to bring the pool up to safe standards to restore the lighthose on the PROMISE that it would be replenished in the next budget.
They are now breaking that promise.
QUOTE: "I don't know where this huge community support for this pool is," said Collard"
Anonymous - January 23, 2012 8:40 PM
It makes it hard to determine who is saying what when more then one person writing anonymously, do yourself an us a favour - get a nick name ( we don't need to know who you really are ) But having a nick name will help make it clearer as to who is saying what..
Well, the results of the forensic audit on the town that you have insisted on for years are out and you were spot on Sharon. Nothing but corruption, deceit, lies and backroom deals.
There was no forensic audit performed. It was an Operational Review. I am very glad that it was done. Most towns conduct one every couple of years. It took an election of new councillors to get one. Martin and his former councillors refused to conduct such a review.
As to the findings, I haven't had time to read the report yet.
1:19 how do you know no one wants to invest on the north side ?
what is the size of the parcel available ? what does the zoning allow ? how much do you want for it ?
btw - no one is investing anything on the south side either - the land is free - construction itself is totally financed once x number of units are presold - our town gave the heavy hitters from out of town the best deal imaginable - one where they won't have to put in much of their own money !
Basically the review came back saying town staff are doing a fine job, it is the council that needs work. I would love to hear your thoughts Sharon on it.
Of course, Molinaro prefers the south side. It's the beach, the most prime available parcel of real estate in the area. However, are we sure they won't take the North side of the road if push comes to shove?
A condo on the north side of the road could actually provide a better view for its residents. They would look out onto a wide, pristine beach rather than down onto an area cramped by their own enormous urban-looking high-rise. And mightn't the residents actually prefer to be slightly away from the hustle and bustle of all the daytrippers on the beach, stepped back a bit from the common, noisy crowd? Has the North side option been presented to Molinaro in a positive light and with some fortitude?
In negotiations, you insist vehemently that you will not accept anything less than what you prefer. Then you have to take what you can get. Molinaro must realize that you can't always get what you want, but sometimes what you get is even better than what you wanted.
Anyway, Molinaro is not the only potential investor in the world. Perhaps another investor might invest a little less money and build a condo on the north side of the road that is only six stories high and more in keeping with the relaxing village character of the surroundings. Would that be so bad?
Finally, was the beach previously indeed considered a protected park legally? I've read it was bought for investment purposes, and I've read it was bought to increase the amount of public beach. I don't know what's true.
At any rate, if the new buyers were told that the south side would be a protected park, and if the developer wielded more influence with the town than the current residents do, perhaps there would be more insistence on enacting and enforcing protection of this natural treasure. It's Canada's south shore, but sadly, it's one of its few open beaches.
Just a couple points. It is my opinion that the condo's would not sell on the North side of Erie. When one considers that there are no condo apartments in the entire Fort Erie area, there must be a reason for that.(no body wants to live in condo's??). Of course being on a world class beach certainly might help the saleability.
Secondly the 87 owners of the condo , by law, will only have a voice on the common areas, of which the Public beach is not.
John V
Yes Sharon...I heard the exact same thing. According to the operational revue results given last night at council we are fortunate to have a superb staff but they feel our council needs improvement...hmmm...very interesting indeed. I as well would like your take on that....
Yup,
It reads something like this:
Town operations are “lean and mean,” said the consultant who Fort Erie town council hired last year to root out cost savings and “efficiencies.”
David Berger of Western Management Consultants said the Town compares well with similar municipalities and in some cases exceeds benchmarks.
The two most important points in his 25 recommendations, as he described them, related to council governance.
Councilors and staff “are experiencing some challenges in their working relationship,” his report states.
“Better governance appears to hold the greatest opportunity for improvement to operations. Increase the number of key operational decisions being made and decrease the amount of time and effort to make them.”
He said more effort must be devoted to health and safety or the Town could face an onerous audit by the Ministry of Labour and many hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs.
A couple of departments are short-staffed, a few more could have job responsibilities tweaked, and the drop in development applications means the planning department could handle more workload.
Why so quiet Sharon?
The beach itself is belongs to the crown. The Rebstocks had a "lease" on the beach, back when such things were allowed. It reverted to the crown when the town bought the Rebstock Property. The original recommendation of the C.A.U.S.E. study was to buy the land should it become available and possibly sell off the north portions to purchase more waterfront property. That part of the phrase is often left off in the argument. Some try to infer that the property was bought as an investment. It was bought as parkland, a legacy for the people of Fort Erie. Other than the demolition of the rental buildings on the property, the erection of a simple washroom building and the covering of sand (the mound) there was little done to the property. The old snack bar was only allowed to stand because of an understanding with the lessee of the building. Frankly, as soon as the washrooms were built, that eyesore should have come down - or been rehabbed. The old Lobster House is in better shape, apparently. I always thought that building would make a great Crystal Beach Museum. (That was before the town opened the door to developers.)
BTW, I found it interesting that on the town website, the entrance to Crystal Beach/Bay Beach is noted as through the Ashwood entrance. No mention was made about the entrance through the former Rebstock Property. And people wonder why we are concerned that the Bay Beach Properties will no longer be public. The Molinaros will do everything in their power to make their investment look like a private enclave. And the town is helping them do it.
CENSORSHIP at it's best. Thanks for keeping your AMERICAN INFLUENCE in tact.
BUSTED ..... Screenshots dont LIE.
LMFAO
The STRAND has been audited for over 3 years now with respect to Freedom of Speech infringments, and evidence has been continually provided to authorities in anticipation of FEDERAL convictions wich will result in at least deportation, but we are going after prison time.
Your time has run out. We are tired and fed-up with your disrespect.
Answer your door at your own risk.
What are you talking about? I have been trying to remain out of the arguments and have allowed the comments that have come in. I would like to keep the conversation going, as long as people are respectful to each other.
I did a quick read of the Operational Review and did note that the problems between staff and council could be mitigated if information is made available to councillors and that everyone acts in a professional manner. I did not see that council was blamed for the difficulty.
As an aside: no councillor should have to use FOI to get information that should be forthcoming from staff. There is a disconnect that needs to be resolved.
Otherwise, it is well worth the money to find that town hall is operating efficiently. (Frankly, I was pleasantly surprised. Very surprised. I'll be that staff morale is better now.)
See what happens when the conversation goes in the wrong direction?
Somehow, this blog is supposedly infringing on "anonymous's" Freedom of Speech. LOL. How ridiculous can it get? Because I may not print something that I don't like, from an anonymous poster (as per the above disclaimer) I can be arrested?
The jails would be full of bloggers if that were true. Hey, Anonymous. You'll have to put your real name on that complaint. Bwah!
Tell you what, Anonymous. Don't visit this blog or send in comments. You'll feel so much better.
Anonymous 2:50 p.m.: Are you saying that people that buy condos won’t be able to vote and partake in local government, even if they are Canadian citizens? Or am I misunderstanding you?
I think that people who don't want to live in condos won't want to live in them on either side of the road. They'll buy a house there instead. And in fact, I do question whether there is a market for people to buy a condo is the area.
But if some investor believes that people want to live in condos, then I should think a condo that faces an open beach, which is never to be built upon, across a narrow road should be essentially as attractive as one on the other side of the narrow road. In fact, the privacy of the former may be preferred. I myself would hate to live in a place that is surrounded by the general pubic frolicking at the beach around me all day and night. I would prefer a little privacy, as long as the beach across the street is right there for me to look at and use.
It may well be that the secret goal is to create a private enclave there for the condo owners. But just in case the developers are willing to try to work with the people who presently use the beach, I think the north-side-of-the-road condo location would be a good compromise.
I had heard they were not teaching basic reading comprehension in elementary school anymore and it might be true ...
Pink Cow reads the excerpt below from the Operational Review and concludes that the time has come to burn Council at the stake
‘pro-active involvement as opposed to defensive posturing for both staff and council’
Someone else might conclude that the consultant was encouraging both council and staff to make it a priority to develop a mutually respectful and constructive working relationship
Surely the latter read would be an appropriate recommendation from a professional consultant that genuinely desired there to be a positive result from their effort
And it is exactly the Pink Cow kind of reaction to the affairs of our local government that have lead to such a toxic environment
And on benchmarking … if one ‘benchmarks’ to other municipalities that are terribly inefficient - and it wouldn’t be a stretch to make that argument – then meeting that standard is nothing to boast about really – it just says we are average ...
this censorship, freedom of speech, constitution, screen shots, deportation, jail time, nonsense is just so incredibly juvenile ... what are you people thinking ? really ? serious ?
This " censorship, freedom of speech, constitution, screen shots, deportation, jail time, nonsense is just so incredibly" JUSTIFIED .... Just wait and watch. The instigator has already had judgement placed againt her with regards to slander, which she laughs off. Wait for the federal prosecution. It is already in the works.
Deportation will be unlikely ..... Canadian fugative .... a certainty.
Just wait and watch.
I wonder what a fugative is? The word "fugitive" means someone who is on the lam from the law. I'd better get a move on as I am sooo afraid of being arrested for not posting some anonymous person's comments on my blog.
Anything to derail a conversation that might enlighten and inform people of what the real issues are in the Bay Beach question.
BTW, anyone who wants to attend the court on February 6 in Toronto, there is a bus going. It is not free. I am hoping to be able to afford to go. To witness democracy in action. It is unfortunate that it had to come to this, but we feel that the whole deal was a mistake from the get-go.
Giving the jewel of the local crown away for hollow meaningless promises(absolute lies??) is such a mistake and one that future generations will certainly judge us harshly for.
I can only pray that this judge sees this for what it really is and not what many of the proponents are trying to paint it as.
I wonder what "sepak" is ....your post January 20, 2012 4:01 PM.
Why would I want to go on a bus and sit around 2 days waiting for the hearing?
Sepak+=speak in Klingon
The bus that has been reserved is for one day only. That's all I and many others cab afford.
Wonder what will happen to the pro-condo people if this suit is successful. All that money will dry up, won't it Mac or Mc?
But .... But .... the court case is February 8th. Why would you invite people to go on a bus that leaves on February 6th?
"That's all I and many others cab afford."
"cab afford" ?????
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
So, I'm still waiting for the rationale for referring to me as a "fugitive" no matter how it is spelled.
Sorry for the typos. I try very hard to avoid them. The case is on February 8. We have secured a bus to take us to the courthouse and pick us up later in the day. The cost will be determined by how many commit to going.
Right now, I am more interested in discussing President Obama's State of the Union speech.
Of course you are more interested in Obamas speech right now...YOU AN AMERICANO! You are ONLY interested in Canada when you have something negative to say.....one thing for sure is that you are NOT a productive citizen here in Fort Erie. And you are not sure if you can afford the bus??? Please spare us...get off your butt and make a few buck to go if it means that much to you...
The town and the EDTC (taxpayer money) commissioned a $105,000. study to find ways to save the building/employees of the former Parmetics plant. No one is complaining about that money being used for a "study." Why does the EDTC need an expensive study? Isn't it the job of the EDTC to do that in-house?
And the results of the study are being kept confidential.
Thanks for bringing my name into this discussion. You know you could have rebutted my post on Redbull ..... but if you feel safer here ....
I find it ironic that you based your opinion on my opinion on the quote from the report that read " "pro-active involvement as opposed to defensive posturing for both staff and council" is an area that needs improvement."
And not the previous paragraph that read" "Berger said the most important recommendations in his report are the final two he has listed, which deal with council cohesion and code of conduct, along with the relation between politicians and staff."
But I guess when, as predicted, people put a spin on things, they are not interested in truthful comments.
As for your "benchmarking" comment.... rediculous. I would put more faith into a "factual" 98% than a "fantasy" 95%.
Anonymous @ 11:13
Right on schedule, you continue your anti-American rant. You have no idea whether or not I have been a productive person, yet you spew lies about me.
Someday, I might take the time to explain why I came to Canada and why I stay in this great country, but I'll just say this: because I want my town to be a shining example of a great municipality, and I'm willing to put my name to my legitimate concerns and complaints (unlike you) does not mean that I am ungrateful that I was allowed to become a Landed Immigrant. I believe that people should speak out and get involved in government. I did that from the time I was a teenager in the States and I will continue to be involved until I die.
Your anti-Americanism towards me and others who are opposed to the Bay Beach Project is shameful. Canadians are better than that. You disgrace your country's good name and reputation.
81 POSTS AND STILL NOT A SINGLE GOOD ARGUMENT EXPLAINING WHY THE CONDO IS THE BEST WAY FORWARD FOR RIDGEWAY CRYSTAL BEACH
DOES THIS MEAN THAT EVEN PROPONENTS ARE BEGINNING TO HAVE DOUBTS ?
So let me get this straight. The legal letter that Lubberts was so upset over was a letter stating that the last OMB appeal was denied and somehow he felt this was an issue that needed to go into closed session over? I love how you guys are always so sure how right you are yet you lose at every single turn. How can a group who claims to be all knowing always be so wrong?
Aren't we supposed to be discussing Obama's State of the Union speech?
I don't follow American politics. How is the State of the Union in the good 'ol U.S.A ?
Exactly....she loves to go and on about the goood ole U S of A but no...she truly has 'our' best interest at heart here in Canada...spare me. Go back to watching Obama....
Really, you think after all this we should still be debating why the condo is a good idea? After 15 failed OMB appeals, are we still trying to debate this. We are not answering anymore questions because we have answered them and none of you listen anyway. But it doesn't matter because like the Town Review we have everything on our side. The condo is being built. It doesn't make business sense to build it on the other side of Bertie road. That is a huge difference in what you can charge. Of course it is about money, all business is. The Molinaros are business people. Deal with it.
Speaking of being on the "lam", have you payed your fine yet?
Oh come on....she is not going to pay that fine..we ALL know that!
That is the problem with people like Sharon Bowers...they can slander away but you cannot get blood from a stone as they say so sue away....there is no money to get from that lowlife.
What fine would that be? The matter with the EDTC has been settled. If you want to know any more, please contact someone in the EDTC.
Can someone explain to me why Doug Martin is not returning calls to Vance Badaway who is trying to put together a Niagara South Health System and wants Fort Erie to be a part of it? Badaway has already set up a corporation; he is serious. And he wants all the equipment that was ripped out of the hospitals to be returned. Why is Martin not getting on board of this effort?
If you actually read, you will see an article explaining why this is a bad idea what Vance is trying to do. Just because someone has an idea it doesn't mean it is a good one. But why don't you call Doug Martin and ask him? Who said Vance was even trying to get in touch with him?
Amazing how you have such inside info.
It is amazing that I have inside information. Martin has not responded to e-mails or telephone calls. If he does not like the idea, why doesn't he just say so?
At least Badaway is doing something. Why do you feel that it's not a good idea?
Actually the matter is not settled is it Sharon? You didn't live up to your end of the deal and that is why you now have a second law suit coming your way. Why don't you tell the truth about your law suit and the deal the EDTC gave you and how you couldn't follow a simply agreement?
Are you lying again Sharon? How on earth do you know that Vance has been sending emails and phone calls? We all know that the Mayor wouldn't even give you the time of day let alone share that info and last I heard, Vance wasn't too impressed with you side kick, Pocket Rambo so I don't he would share any info with you.
Perhaps someone from the Yellow Shirt Brigade has provided that information. Some of them are very upset.
The yellow shirts have lost all credibility with municipal and provincial leaders. They screwed up and turned on the very people that were trying to help them.
12:40 pm
OK Mr./Mrs. ‘let’s get down to business’
Is your primary concern profit for a private sector developer ?
The developer’s business model is not our concern (I presume that given free prime waterfront land, even a mediocre developer could turn a profit). We opposed are however, concerned about the Corporation of the Town of Fort Erie’s business model (as you all profess to be, ad nauseam). Please come hither and explain how it makes good commercial sense for the Town to give away a valuable capital asset ?
Did you actually develop a business model to determine that a north side development was not feasible ? Or did someone just tell you that and you accepted it at face value ?
Aren’t you becoming a little concerned that ‘your’ answers have been so woefully inadequate (given that many of the good people of Fort Erie remain vehemently opposed to the condo even after all this time) ? Surely if it were truly such a good idea, it would enjoy widespread community support …
Hi Pink Cow
I don’t understand the irony you allude to / nor your conclusion from digesting the report, that 3 or 4 councilors should be blamed for everything that goes awry in your world ...
I guess if your only interest in municipal politics is to burn Donnie, John, Paul and sometimes Bob, you would have missed these points from the review presentation which I found to be ripe for further analysis and discussion …
TOFE allows reserve funds to be created for departments and even areas within a department. Recommendation: review and confirm the strategy in place for long term financial needs of the Town.
From an operational perspective, there appears to be a desire for more consistent & effective branding of TOFE in order to increase alignment on what the TOFE brand is between Council, staff and the public. Recommendation: to engage appropriate resources to review & agree on a brand for TOFE, and develop an action plan and guidelines for consistently communicating and managing this brand.
The name of the 'Community Gaming and Development and Community Health & Wellness' can be misleading to members of the public. There also seems to be a lack of public understanding as to what this group now does, and how workload has been affected by a decrease in gaming revenue. Recommendation: to consider renaming this division and/or better communicate the services it provides to the public.
I don’t understand the irony you allude to / nor your conclusion from digesting the report, that 3 or 4 councilors should be blamed for everything that goes awry in your world ... To whoever wrote the above. LMAO! You do realize you are posting on the strand right?
@ 6:00pm, do you read your own stuff. Do you live in some perfect world where your husband brings home the bacon?
Let me stop you right there. You claim the developer could still turn a profit on the North Side of Bertie road. That is true but the fact still remains that basic business cents means turn as much profit as possible. Come on, these are world class developers. This is a deal that we all win at. Stop your nonsense and quit pretending like you understand it all.
Respectfully...A question.
Let's assume The Crystal Beach Gateway Project aka: "The Condo's" (or whatever they call it now)
is in fact built.
The question to proponents as well as opponents is...
What happens after that?
It may be helpful to give an identity other than "Anonymous"
8:04
business cents :)
do you recognize what the blind drive to maximize profits did to the global economy in 2008 ? and have you ever seen the abyss ?
world class huh ?
point being ... the maximization of private actor profit should not be achieved by discounting muncipal assets to zero and then transfering title ... that would be to pevert the free market that you apparently champion ... what ?
@John, the Bay Beach Condos will open the flood gates for more public beach acquisitions.
Scary thought if you are a FEWPA member with private beaches.
Eh?
Read the town's web-site and enjoy
@ John McCarthy, don't you read the news paper? We will all get lead poisoning.
@ 8:35
so ... privatize bay beach and compromise natural waterfront heritage feature in order get more public sand ?
yeeeeehaaaaah !
cut off your nose to spite your face much ?
"the Bay Beach Condos will open the flood gates for more public beach acquisitions." (Anonymous)
Where will these "public beach acquisitions" come from?
The only floodgates that will open will be in the underwater garage.
Community Outreach Program Erie (COPE)
Mandy Volzke-Crosby:
We are in desperate need of food. Our Christmas donations are already almost gone. Time to help re-stock those shelves. Items needed are soup, mac and cheese, any snacks for kids lunches, crackers, cookies, canned pasta (spaghettio's), canned fruit, tuna. We also have a fridge and freezer should any one want to get anything fresh. Once again thank you for your continued support. 32 Dufferin St., 905-871-2526, Mon-Thurs. 8:30 - 4:00 and Fri. 8:30 - 3:00.
Our family will gladly support the COPE urgent food drive that you posted.
Just checked the pantry. Ten packages of pasta and ten large cans of pasta sauce going their way this weekend.
Thanks for the post. Feels good, don't it.
Pink
8:30 wrote - do you recognize what the blind drive to maximize profits did to the global economy in 2008 ? and have you ever seen the abyss ?
world class huh ?
First, you have to love it when someone uses big words and tries to sound intelligent. Do you not realize that maximizing a profit has been around as long as capitalism? In almost 200 years it has worked but you look at the last 5 years and use 5 out of over 200, even more if you go back to Rome to prove your point? It may work on some of the folks who follow this blog but the rest of us know better.
Morning 9:12
Did you see the abyss in 2008 ? A lot of people did and we didn’t like it.
Most observers agree that we are still feeling the economic pain caused by an imperfect capitalist system that kind of blew up in 2008. Having said that, I agree that free market capitalism remains the best path to prosperity but it does seem to need a reset of sorts.
The condo deal seems inconsistent with a genuine pro-business agenda to me. Even a high school economics student might recognize that the terms of the condo deal – whereby a public asset is transferred to the private sector free – is a distortion of the free market.
I am not totally comfortable with the degree to which our municipal government is active in the local economy. Is it possible in general, that prolonged government intervention in the economy could retard the process of creative destruction for example, that helps to brings about new ideas and products and industries ?
I suspect that the seeds of modern capitalism can be traced at least as far back as ancient Greece and likely much further, yet the system does not yet properly account for the legitimate long term interests of communities like ours.
I am sorry that your vision for Fort Erie and the level of analysis you deem appropriate for the condo deal does not include intelligent ideas, articulate comment and big words – my apologies.
I'm confused about why some people are so concerned about having the Molinaro group maximize its profits. I'm presuming that no one on this blog is part of the Molinaro group.
When you are selling real estate to someone, as the government of Fort Erie is, you normally do not care about maximizing your buyer's profits. You care about maximizing your own (seller's) profits, that is, in this case, about maximizing the well-being of the public (since the government is the seller here).
The government here should be worrying about the people who use the beach, many of whom are residents of the town, and the ability of the town to attract revenue in the form of taxes and tourism dollars. The purpose of government is to protect the welfare of its people, not to facilitate their being taken advantage of by private corporations who care nothing about the public and only about corporate profits.
I think the high-rise discounts the rights of the taxpayers already living near the beach. will make the destination less attractive to out-of-town tourists because the beach will be less beautiful and accessible, and will lower real estate values in the area. I certainly wouldn't want to buy one of the homes in Crystal Beach after this huge building is erected right next to the cottages, and I wouldn't want to live in an high-rise that was responsible for destroying the ambience of the surrounding neighborhood and of the very limited strip of public beach those people had. As I mentioned before, I also wold not want to buy a condo that would have the public swarming about my property in mass numbers.
I really think a preferably smaller building on the NORTH side of Erie Road would be most attractive to buyers (with the proviso that the government makes the beach on the south side of Erie Road a protected park, with no buiildings being allowed that would block the view or access). This also would be fairer to the people who already use the beach, and a smarter business move for the town of Fort Erie.
I'm not really interested in maximizing the profits of the Molinaro group, but I think that whoever builds a condo or, better yet, a charming inn on the north side of Erie Rd. will do well enough if they do it well. If they don't make a killing, I'm fine with that. My concern is that there be no killing of what should be a lovely place to live, play, and enjoy nature.
It really is very sad that this town is involved in a problem that would have had a happy solution for the majority of us now and for future generations. During the previous council when the idea privatizing our waterfront was put forward, the Regional Chairman Peter Partington was all in favour of the plan to improve all waterfront property possible for the "enjoyment of everyone in Niagara". AnnMarie Noyes with the backing of Bob Steckley tried to get the rest of council to open a dialoque with the Region for Bay Beach since there were funds available. That was voted down 5 to 2. I remember a comment by Rick Shular "that's apples and oranges".
WHAT???? The he voted with marin and martha.
All the money having to be raised to block that decision was necessary and still is.
My reply to the person who asked what will happen if this goes through is this: then people will know what they had, and it will be gone. The high-rise will sit close-to-empty, the surrounding cottages will be worth next-to-nothing. The toads, which breed in the shallows of the lake, won’t move into or stay in their little toad prison but will spread out into what will be by then an urbanized local environment; they will be eradicated along with any hopes for a healthy development of Crystal Beach in our lifetime.
Those fortunate enough to have private beaches will still have private beaches, and they will occupy a Crystal Beach ghost town. Many years from now, the high-rise will be torn down, activists will fight for a public beach, and with any luck, they’ll win, because the folly of what happened will be clear by then.
It is government’s role to stop this. Without government, there would be no public beaches and no parks. Private industries would build high-rises upon every gorgeous plot of land. Industry would pollute all the water, cut down all the trees, and mine everywhere they want, regardless of how it decimated natural resources or environmental balances. That’s because business concerns are short-term: turn a profit today, and the devil with tomorrow, when that particular businessman has already gotten rich and retired.
Yet, the rich have power, and when environmentalists try to look out for the future, they are usually threatened and over-ruled. We look to honest and strong leadership to think long-term, explore all options, and allow businessmen to compete with one another to create ideas that lead to an open and integrated community that shares its environmental gifts with one another and with tourists. I hope wisdom prevails.
Which brings to mind the following aboriginal tenet:
"We cannot simply think of our survival; each new generation is responsible to ensure the survival of the seventh generation. The prophecy given to us, tells us that what we do today will affect the seventh generation and because of this we must bear in mind our responsibility to them today and always."
"The high-rise will sit close-to-empty". Isn't it wonderful that we have here in our town a "Nature Lover" that knows more about the marketability of the high-rise than do the experts in the field. HAHAHA!!
12:50
Does your brain have the capacity to understand that there might be more to this problem than marketing a waterfront condo (which has got to be one of the most simple sales in real estate)?
Are you able to cognitively integrate the two concepts of development and conservation ?
I fear that you rely so very heavily on experts that you are unable to think for yourself and will be gutted should the experts ever let you down
I agree with 12:50pm everyone thinks they are experts and they all make these crazy predictions.
@12:50 and 1:59
I'm not claiming I know the future. I'm just responding to the suggestion made several posts up that opponents and proponents of the condo give their guesses as to what would happen if the condo goes forward. No one knows the future, not even the Molinaros. Businesses are crapshoots. Half-empty new condos are a fact of life, so developers must make prediction errors.
Ask yourself this, though. Who do you think will buy a condo that is by the beach but, other than that, in the middle of nowhere? Perhaps, nature lovers, like myself? And they will have to be fairly well-off nature lovers, because these units won’t be cheap. Many well-off nature lovers live in the city and possibly work in a skyscraper, and are seeking to come to Bay Beach precisely to avoid the urban scene. I think they will be turned off by what the town is planning on doing to the beach.
Do you know anyone who can actually afford one of these skyscraper-condo units and wants to buy one? I don’t. I know plenty of people who can afford a cottage, even the grand ones right on the water, and I don’t know any of them that would be interested in a skyscraper-condo there. I think if they wanted a skyscraper-condo, they would buy one on the waterfront in Buffalo or Toronto, not out here, where there is relatively little available in terms of culture or entertainment. Let’s imagine now that you have someone who is okay with there being not much besides nature-related activities to do here and doesn’t want to manage a cottage. They could buy a unit at the Crystal Beach Tennis and Yacht Club, which is far nicer and more private and which still has lots available to build.
In short, before you go dissing us nature lovers, remember this: we are the consumers you are hoping to lure. And I don’t think many of us with the means to buy what you’re selling like what is being planned.
Of course, I could be wrong. But what if I’m right?
I have a feeling that the Molinaros did their due diligence and had marketability studies done by firms that are far more knowledgble in these matters than "Nature Lover". I don't believe they roll the dice when investing millions of dollars. They have a proven record in these types of investments. Nature Lover has a guess.
I read these comments and I think to myself, do these people not read or follow the OMB's or do they just keep asking the same questions over and over because they don't like the answers they got. The condo is a done deal. It can't be stopped no matter how wishful you make it. Move on! These questions are old and tiresome and people actually have the nerve to think that they need to be answered again. They have debated by experts by local business people and by residents. 15 dismissed OMB appeals and still this nonsense is going on. No wonder this town has such a bad rep.
This town has a bad rep due to obvious corruption and an old boy network that thinks of nothing but itself. "To hell with the next generation or the greater good, I've got mine"as demonstated by far too many of the Fort Erie leaders in the 40 years I've been here.
Be careful when you say the word "corruption" or you could be sued at taxpayer expense.
Okay, then. Let’s say you have such faith in the Molinaro’s ability to forecast the future that you are willing to risk your town’s jewel on an extreme plan to totally and irrevocably alter the appearance and ecosytem of your beach and the fabric of your community. Let’s try the scenario in which the condo fills up.
A few people who love skyscrapers decide to move to Fort Erie to live in a skyscraper in the middle of nowhere year-round (do you think there will be many such people?). Lots of rich Buffalonians buy a unit because they want to have a place to stay overnight when they visit the beach on occasion and couldn’t afford a place at the Crystal Beach Yacht and Tennis Club. (Are these units going to be cheaper than CBYTC, which never after all these years sold all its lots and is far more attractive than the proposed Molinaro building?). A few people from Toronto buy a unit to visit on occasion, but let’s face it, Toronto is pretty far, and it has its own wonderful lakeside resorts, which are immensely popular. History tells us that most of the buyers will be Americans. Maybe a few people from Fort Erie may choose to retire in the Molinaro building, but people moving from one place in Fort Erie to another won’t constitute a net change in consumer dollars for the town.
The Molinaros are hoping for this scenario, and they might as well go for it since they're being given a plot of land that should have cost them a fortune.
Will this scenario help the town much, though? The town will have given away the one thing that makes it special, and in return, it will have maybe a few new year-round residents, but mainly, more rich Americans who are even less inclined to spend a lot of time here than the American cottagers.
Remember, a primary attraction of condos is you don’t have to take care of them. Rich Americans who truly love their cottages, on the other hand, do want to take care of them and make a real commitment to the community. And they’ve just been slapped in the face, as have the Canadian residents of Crystal Beach, by a decision that totally changes the character of the town they bought into. Some of the cottagers and residents will decide to sell, but it will be harder to sell their homes now. Who will want to buy a house that sits in the shadow of a 12-storey condominium blocking them from the beach (and looks ridiculously out of place) or whose beach looks onto a shoreline that is no longer quaint and lovely but now looks simply ill-planned? This won’t be good for local real estate companies, or for the general economy of the area.
Anyway, the Molinaro group does well in this scenario, but the town gains little in the way of taxes, local stores gain little in the way of business (except possibly in the summer months), and THE PUBLIC HAS NO BEACH. Well, they’ll have a patch of beach around back of these condos, the owners of which will absolutely hate them.
Don’t you think the condo owners will find ways to make it difficult for the commoners to use the beach? They will succeed, since after all, they own the place, and buying a cottage in the area or visiting the area on a day trip will become less and less attractive, because it will be harder and less pleasant to access the beach and use it, and it won't be a very pretty beach anymore either.
Okay, now it’s your turn. What do you think will happen? It’s worth thinking ahead about this. Don't hide your head in the sand and say this is a done deal and thereby seal your fate. THINK!
7:31 PM
I understand you have a ‘feeling’ … but what I really want to know … is … have you seen a market feasibility study ? Or did someone just tell you this was a good idea and you believed them ? If you really understood the deal, you would know that the developer is not really risking millions of dollars of their own money that will make all of our dreams come true. The land is free and if they sell enough condos before building anything, they can then borrow the money to build … I am not saying this is wrong; it's just the way the industry works ...
Again the question.
Assuming the tower is built, what happens next?
With all the comments and strong opinions expressed leading up to the decision to give the deal the green light I have to imagine there are just as many "expectations" as to what follows after the projects completion.
So please...What are your thoughts on the matter?
8:24 PM
Whoops – I think someone’s brain just short circuited
The whole logical argument thing is hard
And so we’re taking our ball and going home :(
Questions that become old and tiresome are those that don’t get answered adequately
Despite unlimited staff hours and budget for lawyers, consultants and studies, you still have not been able to get a simple majority to support your position that this is a good idea
Do you really understand the deal ? If you did, you would know that this is not a done deal and there is a very real risk that it will not get the approvals that it needs from a provincial ministry and a provincial court.
The parts of the deal that have been agreed are bad for the Town from a commercial perspective and you should be concerned as a rate payer, that you are getting hosed. But you don’t seem to be and that is simply bewildering to many of us
You guys don’t seem to care if this is a good idea or not. You seem all ego, no logic and I wonder if the extent of your ability to argue in support of the deal is retarded by your need to enhance your perceived social status through your association with the heavy hitters from out of town ? Could that really be all there is to it ? You would take that deal ? Many do and that’s just a drag …
I want to thank those who have offered reasoned arguments for and against the Molinaro Project.
I would like to clarify one misconception: that American cottagers are all rich. Sure, some are, but the vast majority are regular middle class families who chose to spend their vacation dollars in Canada by owning a little piece of paradise. My father was a fire chief. There are many firefighters, police officers, teachers, blue collar workers and just regular working stiffs who were able to buy cottages in Fort Erie, mostly in Crystal and Bay Beach. Every once in a while, someone I used to work with or a former neighbour from Buffalo discovers this blog or The Strand. What we have in common is our love for "The Beach." A lot of them have cottages in the Beach or come to the area from other places to reconnect with old friends. They do not get involved in the issue, but they do not want to see a tower overlooking the beach. They come here because of the laid-back summer atmosphere. Like one would find in Ontario's "cottage country." I don't know, but are there any high rise condos in those areas? Just asking.
And, almost without exception, they especially enjoy seeing their Canadian friends. As I have stated before, my family has had ties with Canada since before I was born. My parents were married in Canada. My godmother came from Nova Scotia. My best friends at university were Canadian. My first serious relationship was with a Canadian guy. Initially, I moved to Canada to be with a Canadian.
I'm just offering this information because my love affair with Canada goes way back and I want only the best for my adopted home. I do not think that the Molinaro Project is what's best for our community and I will be very disappointed if it is built.
where is my post. wtf im on your side.
The only posts I have rejected are those that try to direct traffic to or mention a rival website.
It's looking like the voice of Crystal Beach is only one voice.
@ 8:24 wrote - Despite unlimited staff hours and budget for lawyers, consultants and studies, you still have not been able to get a simple majority to support your position that this is a good idea.
Funny cause the one elected official that everyone in Fort Erie that voted, voted on the Mayoral race and look who won. So keep living in your fantasy world and dreaming that somehow you have a majority.
The problem with the anti condo people is that they weren't honest. Starting with this blog. The yellow signs were a lie no matter how you twist it. The information that was spread around to confuse and convince others that this was a bad deal is still going on. When I read all these comments especially from Nature LOver, I have to wonder, is it really that hard for you people to accept the truth? Do you know how crazy you all sound? I read about corruption all the time and in reality, do you know how many people would have to be involved? Literally everyone from judges to lawyers to municipal and provincial and federal officials.But I guess when you are the type of person who puts out false information it would be easy for you to believe others will do the same.
None of you have any knowledge of how this deal works. I have not read one accurate post regarding this deal.
First off, this deal will ensure that Bay Beach remains public. Under the current laws any time lands transfer the beach's become public property. If any of you had an inkling of the reality of this and an understanding of this deal you would see that. So there is your first point on why this is a good deal.
The amusement park is gone, it's never coming back. I respect Phil Smith but his efforts to try and turn back time and rejuvenate hot dog alley will only go as far as the phase lasts.
Bay Beach belongs to all of Fort Erie, not to the residents of Crystal Beach alone. After all it was out tax money that bought it.
There are those of us who actually read the deal and have asked questions instead of relying on a blog to get information.
As for whoever made the comment about the Molinaros doing a marketing study, of course they did. They didn't get to be successful by guessing unlike most people on this blog.
Sharon, this law suit is going to be dismissed. Just like the 15 OMB appeals. This big shot lawyer is taking you all for a ride. But hey,keep hosting those pasta fundraisers to pay his bill. It is a stretch as is. But good luck with that.
What all you brains don't realize is that now that council voted on this deal if there are anymore delays like this law suit, this town is exposed to a major law suit. But you guys keep blindly fighting your imaginary good fight.
In the end, it is nothing more than a building but I can tell Sharon needs the drama in her life. This blog makes her important and it is entertaining for me. So carry on.
Oh and Sharon, you probably won't post this but that's ok, I copied it and will post elsewhere.
I'm going to have to start a new thread so that people don't have to slog through over 100 posts to make a point.
The previous post (Hi Greg!) has a number of inaccuracies that need to corrected:
When the Bay Beach Properties were bought from the Rebstock Family with gaming money - not tax money, the sand beach automatically became public. The yellow signs say: Keep Bay Beach Lands Public.
That is our goal. Simple.
We have fought this because it will change the character of Crystal Beach forever and it sets an alarming precedent for the future. As others have stated, we don't want to live in a community whose waterfront has high rises all along its shore. And that, is exactly what Rino Mostacci envisioned when he opened the door to development on our public waterfront property. He stated this in public; it was heard by numerous people and it appeared in print.
What he set in motion will change Fort Erie forever and, as I pointed out numerous times, he didn't even live in Fort Erie! And now he's gone on to another town, just like Harry Schlange who was also a proponent of the concept.
That left us with few options; opponents to the tower are exhausting every avenue to stop it. The lawsuit is next. We'll find out on February 8 if the judge dismisses the suit. Do you know something we don't? Opponents worked hard to get sympathetic councillors elected and they were largely successful. You might want to remember that Doug Martin won his re-election by a mere five votes - hardly a mandate. Frankly, any incumbent who wins by such a slim margin would have to feel very lucky and grateful he was given another chance. Martin continues to be arrogant, obstinate and way out of his depth.
We are not delusional and we realize that the amusement park is long gone. We have people on our side who are too young to even remember the park. Phil Smith has done a great deal for Crystal Beach and I applaud his efforts to rehab Hot Dog Alley. Few would remember the significance of that name for Derby Road, but it is part of the history of the Beach.
If you've ever visited other waterfront communities, you would probably prefer the ones where the shore is open and visible and where quaint communities surround it. I sure do and I have visited many. Some of the most beloved waterfront communities boast of open expanses of public beach, boating and a village that is casual and charming. Crystal Beach is working its way out of a deep depression; a high rise is not going to help.
Yes, to the "town" it's a done deal. And to people like you who jumped on the band wagon long after it got on the road, I can only wonder what you are gaining. A few free meals and a pat on the back from town officials? But, we're not convinced that all is lost and we will continue to fight what we feel is a tragic mistake until there are no more legal means possible.
As to my involvement, I started The Strand and later the blog to take advantage of the new technology to get the message out in a way that is inexpensive and swift. I've always felt that people need to stand up for what they believe and this is something that I feel strongly about.
Once it is resolved, there will be other challenges; I will continue to tilt at windmills, as long as I'm able, until I die.
The previous post (Hi Greg!) has a number of inaccuracies that need to corrected:
When the Bay Beach Properties were bought from the Rebstock Family with gaming money - not tax money, the sand beach automatically became public. The yellow signs say: Keep Bay Beach Lands Public.
That is our goal. Simple.
I don't even no to go any further. I have to laugh cause there was a bunch of us who knew you would point out that it was gaming money and not taxes. So what exactly is your point? In your argument then not even the tax payer had a right to protest because it wasn't tax payer money. So you just defeated you own cause. Typical Sharon. When you have a tongue like yours it's easy to trip over it.
What ever happened to all those yellow signs? My guess is that people realized they were bamboozled and took them down because they were more like a badge of gullibility.
Talk about a set up, you just took that one hook line and sinker. Or in your case, stinker.
Keep up your fight Sharon. You are the only ones left fighting but the bell has long wrung.
The only people who were bamboozled were the bots who are easily convinced that a high rise tower on public lands will benefit the community.
If the development were to be placed on private property, there are many who still would have fought it because it (the tower) is out of character to the rest of the area and, the zoning change that allows such height would be challenged.
I know of only one case where the "people" prevailed in an OMB appeal and that was in The Beaches area of Toronto. Otherwise, it seems that the the OMB is very biased in favour of developers.
Perhaps a name change is in order
for the OMB:
Officially
Maintaining
Builders (and developers)
Is that how you defend your position? By playing games with semantics?
No, that is how I prove how your mind really works.
Did it ever occur to you that developers always win because they do their homework and know the laws inside and out? Of course not. In this country, people have the right to make deals and own land and build on that land.
This condo is being built by an award winning world class developer yet the residents of Crystal beach feel they know more about it then than the engineers. Funny, this is the same group that voted in Donnie Lubberts.
By the way, how come you didn't post about the altercation between Donnie and our Mayor? I heard directly from an eye witness that it appeared like Donnie was going to get violent and the Mayor stood his ground with him until he backed down.
I know nothing about any incident between the mayor and Don Lubberts. It is not uncommon for politicians to get into heated arguments over issues. In American history, Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr took their argument outside and had a duel. Hamilton lost; there were no charges filed against Burr as that was an accepted way to resolve arguments a couple of hundred years ago.
An OMB decision is usually made by one person. That person makes their decision based on the evidence presented, but there is a long history of OMB rulings that are heavily weighted in favour of developers despite a mountain of evidence presented by the other side. There have been numerous suggestions that the OMB be eliminated.
The dozen or so who appealed to the OMB were treated as one case, just like the lawsuit that will be argued on February 8.
You still haven't explained how you know for a fact that the lawsuit will be dismissed. That is pure speculation on your part. Personally, I will hope that the issue gets a fair hearing before an impartial judge.
Of course you knew nothing about it. It makes your guy look bad so why would you post. If it was Martin you would have devoted 3 blogs to it.
I never said I know for a fact. Come on Sharon, I am too smart for that. But I will say this, I talk to allot of people and some of them are lawyers. You always seem to forget that we talk to lawyers. Lawyers who all agree that this case in all likely hood will get dismissed. Of course there is always that very small chance that you may get a judge to agree to send it to trial but then all that means is that the judge felt it deserved a trial. They still have to win that case. Then what? The condo will already be on it's way to being built so if by some miracle they actually win this law suit, do you think they will tear down the condo? You are just opening this town up to more law suits. It's just a building Sharon. Move on, no wonder you always have an upset tummy. You get worked up over the silliest things.
11:33
why do you believe that developers always know best ?
why do you think it is in our best interest to simply allow this developer have his way with us ?
it's kind of scary when someone completely believes the 'award winning workd class' brochure talk
@ 2:45
We read the deal and didn’t like it – it’s not a good deal
Given your understanding of the deal, we would be delighted to hear you explain that the Town is not actually giving away a multi-million dollar piece of your land for free …
You’re a businessman – why would you want to relieve yourself of a prime asset and not receive anything in return ? and speaking of return, how is that ROI calculus working out for us ?
I understand that you read the deal and asked questions – who gave you answers and do you think they were being objective ?
Technically this land does belong to all Fort Erie residents – and don’t you think they should ALL be concerned that their really valuable land is being given away and that their waterfront will be lined with high rise condo buildings within a generation if this precedent is allowed ?
In this case, don’t you think the views of ridgeway crystal beach residents should be given more weight because we understand this end of town better ? just like residents of bridgeburg or crescent park should have more say about what goes on in their neighborhoods. Isn’t this why we have a system of wards ?
Do you mean to say a good natured developer with only the best intentions for the future of our community would sue its own joint venture partner ? After all we’ve been through together ! So should we all cower then, given the implied threat and intimidation from the heavy hitters from out of town ?
Your read of by-law 69-08 is not quite correct – sand beach will only be transferred to the Town when a land owner seeks to develop the land and not simply when there is a transfer of land as you suggest – in exchange for granting zoning to allow more intensive land use, the Town expects sandy beach in return –
This is worrisome because it implies that the Town envisions a fort erie whereby our waterfront land use policy permits high density development – I don’t recall there ever being a public meeting or debate concerning the way we use our waterfront !
Actually, I am not sure I would need market research to know that I could make money selling waterfront condominiums on a beautiful sandy beach on land that was free within a 90 minute drive of one of the third largest cities in North America !
The yellow "Keep Bay Beach Lands Public" signs were no longer necessary because it is no longer a matter of public opinion. It's as simple as that. We all still feel as strongly obviously, but the mayor and martha didn't regard the majority's opinion then anyway.
@ 11:33 am and yet their lawyers and the town lawyer have been right about everything and this blog has been right zero times.
@ 2:45 pm, the town is not giving away a multi million dollar piece of land.
Given your understanding of the deal, we would be delighted to hear you explain that the Town is not actually giving away a multi-million dollar piece of your land for free …
That land as is is valued at about less than half a mil, that means less than $500,000. Once again, this is the misinformation that gets spread around. The land is only worth that much money with an actual condo on it. So no condo means the land is not worth anywhere near in the millions. The town is giving away lets say $400,000 and getting over $2 mil in amenities in return plus the beach will remain public and can never be taken over by anyone now. Lets say that the town said here we will just sell it to you for $2 million. Then what? Now this condo is truly a private building and there would be no access to the beach. How on earth anyone can look at this and realize that the town made a great deal is beyond me. But then these are the same people that voted councilor Lubberts in.
I’d like to thank the previous poster for the detailed thoughts. I do have to question the first sentiment. How are you assessing who is right? By who won a power struggle? If so, that’s not the same as being right.
However, I appreciate that s/he seems to believe that by building this private skyscraper, the town is ensuring that the beach remains public. I think, though, that when a beach is blocked from the road by a large private building, this discourages its use by the public and by tourists. Therefore, I believe that the skyscraper actually brings the beach one step closer to being a de facto if not de jure private beach.
Let’s ask this, now. What are the $2 million worth of amenities you’re mentioning? Are they really amenities the public wants to have (enough to pay for with their beach), and do they really want these amenities taking up the precious bit of land that is their beach? Or are they amenities the condo-owners want?
!. A 12-storey “inspiring” building—This is for the condo owners, and to me is nowhere near as inspiring as a beach; in fact, it is, to me, unsightly.
2. A Municipal public facility. I don’t know what that is, but I don’t want it on the beach. Build it somewhere else, I say.
3. Food/drink facilities for beach users—Don’t need on that side of the street,
4. Public washrooms/changerooms—good
5. A waterview restaurant—That doesn’t have to be on the beach.
6. 87 condominium residences above the first floor—This is for the condo owners, and to me, grossly detracts from the beach
7. 100-foot wide public open space next to the municipal public facility, providing additional recreation area, access to the public beach and open views to Lake Erie from Erie Road—Public space is already there.
8. Additional 100-foot wide open air plaza area next to the municipal public building, fully accessible to the public and available for outdoor events such as concerts/festivals—Open-air plaza can go elsewhere, not at the beach.
9. The Town keeps the public parking areas on the north side of Erie Road, with improvements resulting in approximately 126 spaces—There already is parking there.
10. Improvements to Erie Road, including street landscaping, pedestrian crossings, and a “gateway destination tower” signaling arrival at the beach—Tower sounds like a waste; landscaping is nice but not essential; I bet volunteers could do it.
11.Parking for the condominium to be located entirely underground, resulting in a more open/landscaped site design at ground level. Landscaping will cover over 75% of the site—Good, but put the parking on the other side. See if you can fundraise to pretty up the beach park.
12. A public waterfront promenade/boardwalk along the beach, with potential for additional connections easterly and westerly as identified in the Crystal Beach Neighbourhood Plan—What is this, a sidewalk? I want to walk in the sand.
The only amenities it seems to me that might be nice for a natural beach are some changing rooms and lavatories. The underground parking would be nice, but on the other side of Erie Road. This doesn’t add up to $2 million dollars worth of things I think the public really wants that much, in my opinion.
I am really beginning to wonder if the fire department in this great little town are just waiting for the possible approval of this 12 story condo to spring on us the fact that they will have to spend almost three to five million dollars on a ladder truck that would be capable of succesfuly providing rescue services at this tower.
Of course we would have to build a new and larger station to house this very expensive apparatus, so what gives are the developers going to spring for this? Or perhaps we are expected to grow like the G.T.A. Not with Martin
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